"Fat Cross" Questions

[Greenwit]

I read the manual and still don't quite understand. When a worker improves a square near the city center does it need to be in the 'fat cross' area or somewhere within the cultural influence to achieve benefit of the improvement? Manual says that a city's pop can work only on the 'fat cross.' Does this area change with time as the city grows or is it constant? 'Cause it seems to me the computer is suggesting areas of improvement beyond this cross. Is there any way to tell from the city screen the squares this fat cross consists of?

Also, are there circumstances when roads are needed to connect an improvement to the city center in order to achieve the full benefit of that improvement?

Finally, when I construct a cottage I often see the message "city must work to become a hamlet." Does this simply mean I need to assign population to this square to square for it to grow? Do I need to connect a road from the cottage to the city square?

The definitions of 'city radius,' 'fat cross,' and cultural influence are a bit muddled in my head especially with respect to land improvements.

Thanks!

[alva]

Both!!

For cottages and such it needs to be in the fat cross and in your borders.

resources need to be in your cultural borders.
So a you can buld horse* units if you have an improved horse tile(road and pastures) anywhere in your border but you don't get teh extra hammers it produces, for that it needs to be in the fat cross.
Note that only cities connected to tile (through raod, river) will be able to build mounted units.

* obviously, you also need the required techs.

Hope that cleans it up, not that good in explaining things.

[Greenwit]

Is the size of the fat cross constant or does it change? How can I tell what the fat cross consists of? As far as I can tell, it's not delinated in the city screen....it was more clear to me in Civ 3. Thanks for the response.

[Dominae]

When you enter the City View (double-click on any city) you can see exactly which tiles are in the "fat cross" for that city. Those are the tiles that you (or the Governor) can assign laborers (i.e. population points) to. There are 21 tiles in the fat cross.

Let's forget the term "fat cross" and replace it with "city radius" or "workable tiles" (both are better).

A city's cultural radius is a different beast altogether. It goes through various stages, depending on the city's cultural value:

Stage One: A 9-tile box
Stage Two: A 21-tile fat cross
Stage Three: A 36-tile blob (I just made that up, btw)
Stage Four: etc.

As you can see, a city's cultural radius must progress to stage two before that city has access to all of its workable tiles.

Now, this is the part that I suspect confused you:

Let's say you have a Cow resource 3 tiles away from your city. That Cow does not fall within that city's workable tiles, so you cannot work it. However, you can still get the +1 Health bonus from it! Just put a Pasture there and Road it back to your city, as you would any other resource.

As long as the Cow/Pasture falls within your cultural borders, you will get the resource bonus. The AI knows this, and will "hook up" resources that cities cannot work directly.

So, as you can see, city radius and cultural radius are related but different concepts.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Greenwit
Is the size of the fat cross constant or does it change? How can I tell what the fat cross consists of? As far as I can tell, it's not delinated in the city screen....it was more clear to me in Civ 3. Thanks for the response.

When you go into the City View, the city radius (i.e. it's 21 workable tiles) will be highlighted, the rest a slightly darker color.

I agree that it's a bit more difficult to see than in Civ3.

[Greenwit]

I loaded up a saved game and now see that the 'fat cross' is slightly brighter in the city screen than the outer perimeter tiles.....and it consists of 21 tiles just as you said. I missed that the first time. Many thanks!

[alva]

See, he does a much better job of it than I do.

[Greenwit]

LOL.....I can use all the help I can get.

[ezzumsss]

I figured out the fat-cross concept, but my workers puzzle me: on the lower levels (where you get all these confusing "hints") they seem to desparately want me to build all over the place, regardless wether a city can work a tile or not - they just got to build mines/farms/cottages.
Automizing them will only make that worse ;-)

Is there any benefit from working or not working tiles outside the fat cross (and apart from resources)? Do forest/jungle give you bonuses later on if they're left alone and not in the workable radius?

In other words: is letting workers build improvements outside the fat cross merely satisfying their compulsive nature or nt?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by ezzumsss
I figured out the fat-cross concept, but my workers puzzle me: on the lower levels (where you get all these confusing "hints") they seem to desparately want me to build all over the place, regardless wether a city can work a tile or not - they just got to build mines/farms/cottages.
Automizing them will only make that worse ;-)

Is there any benefit from working or not working tiles outside the fat cross (and apart from resources)? Do forest/jungle give you bonuses later on if they're left alone and not in the workable radius?

In other words: is letting workers build improvements outside the fat cross merely satisfying their compulsive nature or nt?

There is no benefit from improving (I understand you mean that by "working" - however "working" means putting a city pop on that tile - which you cannot do) tiles outside of fat cross, but within your cultural borders, except for:
- resources (obviously),
- mining hills as you have a chance of discovering a metal resource,
- cutting down forest to give the nearby city a one-time production boost,
- after the discovery of Civil Service, drawing a line of farms from a water source, if you do not have a fresh water source within the city's fat cross.

[Tattila the Hun]

If I have a hamlet on a square, and assign the citizen to work in a mine, does the hamlet revert back, immediately or in time, or does it stay as it is, and continue working as a hamlet, if/when I reassign someone on it?

[ezzumsss]

Thanks for clearing this up and for pointing out the working/improving difference. Haven't started to personally micro-manage my cities yet (too scary/complicated so far).

Another question pops up: I do tend to try and build farm-lines later on to cities that don't have fresh water in their radius. But a lot of times that means I have to build "through" cottages (my workers love improvements, so they've filled all those empty squares with them).
Although I put them there earlier thinking "any improvement is good and I'll build farms later on", they now have grown to hamlets and even towns. So farming those tiles is going to hurt. But I really would like some farms. And for some reason, the cottages closest to other farms are the biggest.

Typing this, I think I made my own answer clear: start micro-managing my cities )
Damn, that means learning about health, specialists, culture limits and such (and lots more forum-reading ;-)

[Peets]

Originally posted by Martinus

There is no benefit from improving (I understand you mean that by "working" - however "working" means putting a city pop on that tile - which you cannot do) tiles outside of fat cross, but within your cultural borders, except for:
- resources (obviously),
- mining hills as you have a chance of discovering a metal resource,
- cutting down forest to give the nearby city a one-time production boost,
- after the discovery of Civil Service, drawing a line of farms from a water source, if you do not have a fresh water source within the city's fat cross.

I noticed you don't get a production boost of forest when it's out the fat cross.

[ezzumsss]

Originally posted by Peets


I noticed you don't get a production boost of forest when it's out the fat cross.

That's strange: I do and I think in general you should get it. (There's even been threads about chopping forest in foreign areas to try and get the boost, don't know if that was possible though.)
Are you sure you've not confused forest with jungle? (the icon for clearing is the same and they're both green )

If you move a worker onto a forest-tile and make them chop, it even says how much hammers will get to which city. (Maybe you don't have to make them chop and hovering over it is enough, but otherwise you can always re-direct them afterwards.)

[Peets]

Originally posted by ezzumsss


That's strange: I do and I think in general you should get it. (There's even been threads about chopping forest in foreign areas to try and get the boost, don't know if that was possible though.)
Are you sure you've not confused forest with jungle? (the icon for clearing is the same and they're both green )

If you move a worker onto a forest-tile and make them chop, it even says how much hammers will get to which city. (Maybe you don't have to make them chop and hovering over it is enough, but otherwise you can always re-direct them afterwards.)

Yes, that is possible!
I will check it again to be sure