Coming to the Mac in 2006

[Fake Boris]

The iBooks as of now only have 32MB of video memory, but still, they're equipped with a Radeon 9550... I guess it should be fine. In any case, it can't be worse than a GeForce2 with 64MB.

[azcoder]

Originally posted by sophist
They would still have to port a lot of stuff. Maybe using DirectX on the PC was enough of a savings in other departments that there was no sense in using OpenGL in anticipation of a Mac port that might not happen.

I hope you are right, but oftentimes I think game developers drink too much Microsoft kool-aid, and portability takes a distant back seat.

OpenGL is just as capable as Direct 3d. Any linux/mac port must use OpenGL. Why not use it from the start?

Brian Hook has an interesting book on portability - one of the ideas he espouses includes periodic builds on multiple platforms. I firmly agree that this really improves not only the portability but also the reliability and stability of the application.

It is significantly more difficult to address portability after the fact. It is glaringly obvious that only OpenGL based games (Quake3+4, Doom3, NeverWinter Nights, Amreica's Army, etc..) are ported quickly to other platforms.

What we have here is a vicious "what came first, the chicken or the egg" cycle. Game Developers see Windows as the only platform that matters since it holds 90%+ of the market share. Consumers keep selecting windows since 90% of all software targets it. Then Microsoft starts the hype bandwagon preaching Direct3d and withdraws from the OpenGL ARB. The latest buzz is that Microsoft Vista won't even support windowed OpenGL Apps.





One way to crack the cycle would be for game developers to target portability from the start - make all builds work in Mac/Linux/Windows.

[Asher]

Originally posted by azcoder
OpenGL is just as capable as Direct 3d. Any linux/mac port must use OpenGL. Why not use it from the start?

Because it's a lot more work...

OpenGL is a mess of vendor-specific extensions and incompatabilities, as graphics cards become more complex the standardized nature of DirectX (and the fact that it doesn't take 4 years to get a new version out to support new features) mean developers tend to prefer it.

[azcoder]

Oh - that makes sense......

But what about Doom 3, or NeverWinter Nights, or America's Army, or any game that runs on the mac and linux. THEY ALL USE OPENGL.

Not to mention it is an easier API and far more elegant and intuitive.

But most important it is portable across platforms. DirectX is like Novell IPX/SPX. OpenGL is like TCPIP. Open Standards are better for the community - it levels the playing field and prevents the barriers to entry that DirectX creates.

It is a better, portable API. The problem is that too many people drink the brainwashing kool-aid.

Plus the fact that they both support Shaders mitigates the need for rapid changes to the API, hence the slowness caused by standardization is mitigated.

It is a shame more games aren't built with portability thought about in the start.

To all Aspiring young game developers - use OpenGL.

Just say no to the kool-aid.

[Asher]

OpenGL is not better, and that's precisely why few people use it.

John Carmack (who made the DOOM 3 engine in OpenGL) had to make 4 different 3D rendering backends for different vendors due to OpenGL. I don't know if that's why, but he recently announced the Xbox 360 will be his lead development platform (which uses a modified Direct3D).

And your shaders example is flat-out wrong, there are new shader versions all the time. SM3.0 is the latest, with 4.0 coming up.

Do you know who defines these shaders? DirectX and Microsoft...

[azcoder]

The hardware capability for programmable shaders is availible to both Direct3d and OpenGL. It is a capability of the hardware, supported by the driver. For example, OpenGL supports a standard shading language, GLSL, that is supported by hardware from nvidia, ATI, 3dlabs,etc.. The different Shader Models you mention are Microsofts changes to their proprietary shading language to support new features. But this Shading language utilizes the SAME hardware as OpenGL.

My point is that you no longer need to wait for the fixed-pipeline API to be modified to support say Shadow Mapping. The pipeline is programmable, and you can implement the Shadow Mapping algorithm yourself in a custom shader. This mitigates a significant portion of the problems with slow standard adoption.

OpenGL is the only 3d API for mac, linux, solaris, SGI, etc.. It is also the dominant API for Windows CAD. It is also the API for the Playstation 3.

Few people use it for games on Windows because of the Microsoft marketing machine. Think about, Microsoft benefits if it is difficult for a developer to port their game to other platforms. This helps perpetuate windows dominance in the marketplace. This is why Microsoft withdrew from the OpenGL ARB. A standard graphics API does not help their cause.

BTW, The early versions of DirectX were significantly inferior. Overtime, Direct3D has grown much similar to OpenGL. Both APIs are now comparable in power and performance.

To say
"OpenGL is not better, and that's precisely why few people use it." is silly and naive.

I cannot see why you fail to see the importance of standards and portability. It levels the playing field and promotes competition and innovation to occur by eliminating vendor lock-in. Where would the internet be without a standard?

[Asher]

I understand the importance of standards, and that's precisely OpenGL has fallen out of favor in the fast-moving 3D graphics world.

As you say, both APIs are now comparable in power and performance. The difference is OpenGL requires more work to implement.

You see, what's not supported in hardware by the graphics chip can be emulated by DirectX, providing a common baseline. If something is not supported by hardware in OpenGL, you must detect that and emulate it yourself or otherwise compensate...and that's why Carmack had 4 rendering backends in the DOOM 3 engine.

You're preaching politics over practicality, and most companies stick to the practicalities. The Mac gaming market is rather pathetically small, it's insignificant to most game publishers. They usually don't even port it themselves, they sell the rights to some 3rd party shop to do it.

The "standards" process of OpenGL is a double-edged sword. While it's nice to have "standards", I can guarantee you that not a single game on the market today stuck to the OpenGL standard. To do almost anything modern in OpenGL games, you need to use vendor-specific instructions because the OpenGL ARB is glacial in its pace to update the standard. The GLSL example you gave is perfect, it didn't exist until OpenGL 2.0, literally some 4 or 5 years after Microsoft brought standardized shaders to DirectX.

What do you think the "NV" stands for in the "NV_Vertex_Program" function? NV_Blend_Square? NV_Fragment_Program? NV_Texture_Shader?

How about GL_ATI_Fragment_Shader? GL_ATI_Texture_Float?

GL_S3_S3TC?

OpenGL is a standard only in theory. In practice it's fragmented by vendor-specific extensions because the OpenGL ARB is too slow to update the standard, due to beurocracy.

Simple example: in OpenGL you need to have at least two codepaths for fragment programs: GL_ATI_Fragment_Shader for ATI cards, NV_Fragment_Program for Nvidia cards. For simplicity I'm ignoring other vendors like Intel and S3.

In DirectX, you need one program path using the function "fragment_program". It works the same on ATi, Nvidia, Intel, and S3 cards.

It's obvious why game developers are ditching OpenGL for DirectX, isn't it?

[Asher]

There are other examples of where DirectX is easy to use. With today's modern audio technology, surround sound and audio reflection/refraction and DSP effects require vertex data to understand the environment being displayed on the screen. The audio chip needs to know what walls will reflect sound, etc.

In DirectX, since both the graphics, sound, input, etc. are all in the same, standardized environment, the sound card can easily interact with the same data used for graphics cards. There is cooperation between the two. Since OpenGL is strictly graphics, and OpenAL is immature and sucks, it's a lot more work to implement environmental audio.

[Gatekeeper]

Microsoft's fanboy strikes a blow for his corporation.

[azcoder]

There are 3 levels of extension in OpenGL.

1) Vendor Specific, prefixed with a vendor name.
2) Extensions agreed upon by multiple OpenGL vendors, prefixed by EXT.
3) Extensions officially approved by the OpenGL Architecture Review Board, prefixed by ARB.

After being an ARB approved extension, the functionality is often promoted into core.

The funny thing is that the vendor-specific extensions are designed to enable vendors to provide enhanced functionality quicker, without waiting for standardization or comprimising the standard. Yet in the same breath you complain about fragmentation. Hopefully you see the irony in your statement.

"The Mac gaming market is rather pathetically small, it's insignificant to most game publishers".
Part of the reason that it is small is because most game publishers don't port to it. Most game publishers don't port to it because it costs money. It costs money because they did not design for portability, and developed using Direct3D instead of OpenGL.

As the mac and linux make larger inroads into Windows domination, you will see more and more games developed in OpenGL from the start. Portability is important. The mac is coming to x86. Linux has taken over the back-end.

Why do you desire to promote a locked-in API that won't run on other machines. A game like CIV 4 can be just as easily developed with OpenGL as Direct3d. Easier in fact, IMHO.

Stop drinking the MS kool-aid and leave the dark side. I bought my mom a mac, the interface is awesome, there is no spyware, you really should try it. Buy your Apple stock now.

;-)

[Asher]

Mac marketshare was down last quarter from 2.5% to 2.4%.

Windows sales were up.

I'm waiting for the Mac and Linux domination, but it's more of a running joke than anything else.

More and more games use DirectX instead of OpenGL, not vice versa. The trend is obvious.

[Asher]

Just a question:

Why do you desire to promote a locked-in API that won't run on other machines. A game like CIV 4 can be just as easily developed with OpenGL as Direct3d. Easier in fact, IMHO.

Why do you think the vast majority of game developers choose DirectX over OpenGL? Do you think you're smarter than everyone, or maybe they know more about it than you do?

[azcoder]

It's not a matter of thinking I am smarter, it is simply a matter of looking objectively at the big picture and evaluating facts.

Any 3d game that runs on mac or linux uses OpenGL. Windows games can run on OpenGL. OpenGL and Direct3d are comparable in performance and capability.

Thus:
Use OpenGL, target 3 platforms.
or
Use Direct3D, target 1 platform. Then pay if you need to port.

I think many people choose Direct3d because:
1) They undervalue portability.
2) They subscribe to the hype.
3) They don't care, or haven't thought much about the big picture.


At some point in the future, several Operating Systems will be able to run on the same hardware and provide similar services. A standard 3d gaming API will exist. Write your app once, let it run on multiple platforms with a minimal effort.


Mac x86 is coming in January. Save your holiday cash and buy one.

:-)

[azcoder]

By the way, just to give you an idea of how many games use OpenGL, the following mac games don't use Direct3D:


Star Wars Battlefrontâ„¢
Star Wars Jedi Knight® II: Jedi Outcast™
Star Wars Jedi Knight®: Jedi Academy™
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegroundsâ„¢
Star Wars: Galactic Battlegroundsâ„¢ Clone Campaignsâ„¢
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic®
Adrenaline Sports Pack
American McGee's Aliceâ„¢
Battlefield 1942: Secret Weapons of WWIIâ„¢
Battlefield 1942â„¢ Deluxe Edition
BloodRayneâ„¢
Bonkheads
Bugdom
CSI: Crime Scene Investigationâ„¢
Call of Dutyâ„¢
Call of Dutyâ„¢: United Offensiveâ„¢
Clive Barker's Undyingâ„¢
Command & Conquerâ„¢ Generals
Command & Conquerâ„¢ Generals Zero Hour
Cro-Mag Rally
Delta Force®:Black Hawk Down®
Deus Exâ„¢
Doom 3â„¢
Escape from Monkey Islandâ„¢
Extreme Fun Compilation
Four x Four Evolution 2
Harry Potterâ„¢ Deluxe Edition
Harry Potterâ„¢ and the Chamber of Secretsâ„¢
Harry Potterâ„¢ and the Sorcerer's Stoneâ„¢
Homeworld®2
IPuppet Presents: Colin's Classic Cards
Indiana Jones® and the Emperor's Tomb™
Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer®
LEGO® Star Wars™
Lara Croft Tomb Raiderâ„¢: The Angel of Darknessâ„¢
Law & Orderâ„¢: Dead On The Money
Leave the Lights On Compilation
MTX: Mototraxâ„¢
Madden 2000
Mah Jong Parlour
Medal of Honor Allied Assaultâ„¢ Breakthrough
Medal of Honor Allied Assaultâ„¢ Deluxe Edition
Medal of Honor Allied Assaultâ„¢ Spearhead Expansion Pack
Medal of Honor Allied Assaultâ„¢ War Chest
Medal of Honor: Allied Assaultâ„¢
NASCAR® Racing 2002 Season
NASCAR® Racing 2003 Season
Otto Maticâ„¢
Return to Castle Wolfensteinâ„¢
Rollercoaster® Tycoon 3
Shrek 2â„¢: The Game
Sid Meier's Alien Crossfireâ„¢
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
Sim Theme Park
SimCityâ„¢ 4
SimCityâ„¢ 4 Deluxe Edition
SimCityâ„¢ 4 Rush Hour
Space Colonyâ„¢
Spider-Man 2â„¢ The Game
Spider-Manâ„¢
Spongebob Squarepants The Movie
SpyHunter®
Star Trekâ„¢: Elite Forceâ„¢ II
Star Trek™: Voyager ® Elite Force™ Expansion Pack Combo
Stubbs the Zombieâ„¢ in Rebel Without a Pulseâ„¢
The Lord of the Ringsâ„¢; The Return of the Kingâ„¢
The Simsâ„¢
The Simsâ„¢ 2
The Simsâ„¢ 2 University
The Simsâ„¢ Hot Date
The Simsâ„¢ House Party
The Simsâ„¢ Livin' Large
The Simsâ„¢ Livin' Large Combo
The Simsâ„¢ Makin' Magic
The Simsâ„¢ Party Pack
The Simsâ„¢ Superstar
The Simsâ„¢ Unleashed
The Simsâ„¢ Vacation
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR® 2005
Tiger Woods PGA® Tour 2003
Tom Clancy's Ghost Reconâ„¢: Desert Siegeâ„¢
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six® 3: Raven Shield®
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell®
Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six® 3: Athena Sword™
Tomb Raider® Chronicles
Tomb Raider®: The Last Revelation
Tony Hawk's Pro Skaterâ„¢ 2
Tony Hawk's Pro Skaterâ„¢3
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater® 4
True Crimeâ„¢: Streets of LAâ„¢
Wakeboarding Unleashedâ„¢ Featuring Shaun Murray
X2 Wolverine'sâ„¢ Revenge
Zoo Tycoonâ„¢
Zoo Tycoonâ„¢ Complete Collection
Zoo Tycoonâ„¢: Marine Maniaâ„¢ Expansion Pack
oo7â„¢ Nightfireâ„¢

[Asher]

"The following Mac games don't use Direct3D" -- is this a joke?

Direct3D doesn't exist on the Mac, no Mac games use Direct3D.

The vast majority of those games, however, use DirectX on Windows. Why would those developers choose DirectX over OpenGL?

Something tells me you've never really done any 3D graphics development on modern video cards if you don't understand why OpenGL has rapidly and continuously fallen out of favor for game development.