You gotta be kidding me

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Locutus
Who are you and what did you do to UberKruX?

He grew up a little, and became a software developer

( And he's looking for a job, Firaxis )

[kbeck]

I’m not sure how me being a newbie to the board has anything to do with my purchase of Civ4 not delivering the promised goods. It seems the implication there is that an *experienced* Apolyton poster would somehow rise above inherit technical issues and somehow not have the Render bug. I’m sure that wasn’t what Locutus meant, but I’m confused about what other meaning the post could have had.

In my experience when you’ve got a technical issue with a game you go through the following list of check:

1. Is your system capable of running the game?
2. Are your drivers up to date?
3. Is the company acknowledging an issue? Meaning it’s massively wide spread and the bad press from not acknowledging it is worse than the small percentage with the issue.
4. Is there a community of users who are having the issue and if so is there a workaround or hack that will get it going?

So I went through this community and saw the suggestions for driver version, special direct X installs from the game CD, INI file modification, desktop resolution alterations, and game reinstall. All of these are good suggestions and logical steps in the debugging/troubleshooting process.

I’m simply showing up to the forums and posting the requested details to help the team working on this issue. Having been both a developer and a QA guy I understand that these things happen sometimes. It’s frustrating, but it will get fixed. I’m sure of it.

In the meanwhile I don’t care if I’m the only person with the issue (although I’m glad that I’m not). I don’t want to spend $49.99 on anything only to get it home and have it not work. I don’t want to be dismissed for being a minority of the overall install base. I don’t want to hear that it’s not that big of a deal. I just want to know that the issue is being looked into and that a solution is coming. I feel like Firaxis is using the information posted and working towards a solution; for that I am grateful.

[archermoo]

kbeck, I don't think that anyone is saying there isn't a problem. And I don't think that anyone is saying that long time Apolytoners shouldn't have the problem, or that newbies don't know enough to not have the problem. I think Apolyton staff has been pointing out how many of the reports of problems are coming from new users to counter those saying that some huge percentage of users (I've seen estimates as high as 50%+) are having problems.

People that aren't having problems with the game aren't looking around for a new board to post on about how well the game is working for them. So right after the release of a new game, the chances are that a pretty high percentage of those that join a forum like this are doing so because they had a problem and are looking for a solution. So it isn't that they are just handwaving new users with problems because they don't count. It is because long time users are more likely to be a good indication of the distribution of actual problems in the population than if you include new users, since a pretty high percentage of new users have recently joined specifically because they had problems with the game.

[kbeck]

archermoo, that makes sense to me. thanks for the clarification.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Novaya Havoc
And good lord -- stop downsizing the issue and PLEASE don't discredit "new registers." I mean, come on. What -- someone who buys Civ4 and just registers to talk about tech issues now has an invalid claim? Classism on internet boards -- I'll never get it.

It's not about newbies/lurkers not having a valid claim, it's about so many newbies/lurkers are coming out of the cupboard because they have a claim, which also means that all those people not coming out of the cupboard (which are MANY in number considering how extremely well presales were) likely don't have problems. It's not about the people who are here, it's about the people are are not here.

The regulars are merely representative of the entire Civ fanbase: a common rule of thumb is that for every regular here there are about a 1000 casual players out there. So if 4 regulars out of 700 or so are having trouble, that's a rough indication of how big this problem is among all customers, whether they are posting on fan forums or not.

So stop downplaying this as 5%, or 10%, or 12 registered users, or 4 registered REGULAR users, or whatever strata you want to downgrade this issue.

Then stop pretending this is the worst release since Windows ME or that this his a horrible game just because it doesn't work on a very specific hardware setup that couldn't be reproduced on the hundreds of systems that Firaxis and 2K Games tested this game on. Some people are claiming it's not working for every 2nd or 3rd person, this is why these percentages are being named.

Noone likes it, but this is normal, everyone who bought he game on release day knew this would happen to some people. Noone's downgrading the problems, everyone acknowledges that the they need to be fixed, ASAP (and that's just what Firaxis is doing). But let's keep perspective and acknowledge that that Civ4 is not a 'disastrous' or 'horrible' game or 'a major screwup' or 'rushed' or whatnot just because of an incompatibility issue. Everyone who can get it to work (and that's the vast majority) is raving on about how great this game is, the user ratings on Gamespot and the like are over the roof, despite these problems.

Originally posted by Inverse Icarus
He grew up a little, and became a software developer

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by bionicjames
It looks like most of the people with 9800s are able to fix it, but anything earlier, 9600s and 9550s can't. Everybody here seems like genuinely nice people though, the mud-slinging has been low key thus far. Hehehe that's probably due to the target market of the game though.

You were here when Civ3 was released I take it! THAT was mudslinging. But it was absolutely peanuts when compared to the mudslinging dealing with SMAC on both Apolyton and the Alpha OWO (ie, official) forums!

Just give it time .

[Willem]

Originally posted by alva

The 9800 series don't seem to have problems, don't think so anyway.

The 9550 does seem to however; I've encountered several posts stating problems with that model. Which sucks for me.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Solver
At least a compatibility issue like this can be resolved, it appears that it can be resolved even without a patch, by installing the proper drivers for this game.

That's not the impression I'm getting. In the thread dealing with the rendering issue, there are several people who have done everything suggested by Firaxis with no luck.

[=M@ddog=]

Thats a pretty lame argument that if EVERYONE with the rendering issues didnt post, they must not have issues. If a person has the issue and can see that their is no solution, why would they post, "me too"??

Is it supposed to be like an AA meeting where everyone stands up and says they have the same problem?

[apollo729]

You're not counting those who aren't posting, those who just what the damn fix, and don't want to cry about it.

How many people are comming to this forum just to look for the fix? How many people are posting in other forums?

Also the game is hard to find in stores right now as its selling like hotcakes, give it a month and then see how many people have the problem w/ the render bug.

[Novaya Havoc]

Originally posted by Locutus

It's not about newbies/lurkers not having a valid claim, it's about so many newbies/lurkers are coming out of the cupboard because they have a claim, which also means that all those people not coming out of the cupboard (which are MANY in number considering how extremely well presales were) likely don't have problems. It's not about the people who are here, it's about the people are are not here.

That's not good reasoning. If we are assuming that criticism = (public) acknowledgement, why is it that praise =/= public acknowledgement? Essentially, you're saying that the influx of frustrated (new) people are complaining, and the absence of complaints from others is a passive consent -- passive praise.

That's simply not sound. You cannot compare the two on different strata. People not complaining online doesn't mean they have overwhelming praise (or contentment). Just like you cannot warrant that all people with complaints are vocalizing it as well.

The regulars are merely representative of the entire Civ fanbase: a common rule of thumb is that for every regular here there are about a 1000 casual players out there. So if 4 regulars out of 700 or so are having trouble, that's a rough indication of how big this problem is among all customers, whether they are posting on fan forums or not.

Where does THAT ratio come from? Apolyton land? What's the ratio for CivFanatics, then? What's the ratio compared to the reviewers on Amazon? What constitutes a "regular?" You can't make a prediction about a mass market based on that.

Then stop pretending this is the worst release since Windows ME or that this his a horrible game just because it doesn't work on a very specific hardware setup that couldn't be reproduced on the hundreds of systems that Firaxis and 2K Games tested this game on. Some people are claiming it's not working for every 2nd or 3rd person, this is why these percentages are being named.

I'm not trying to exacerbate the issue or offer my own "percentages." All I see is a correllation between casual -- and regular -- gamers, and am trying to be realistic about it. You toss out ME -- why was ME a "horrible" release? Because Windows is a HUGE commercial product! "Horrible" is often linked to the size and prestige of a product. A "horrible" independent film isn't going to catch nearly as much flak as a "horrible" X-Men 3. You have a bunch of average joes buying a computer with a faulty desktop system? You have a lot of confused (and angry) consumers.

Likewise, you take one of the most successful, popular, and well-known PC gaming franchises that still exists (the PC is a dying gaming platform) and you toss it to commercial outlets, CASUAL GAMERS will freak. Many have no knowledge of hardware. Many have no knowledge of what a "video driver" is, or DirectX, or any of these additional "requisites." Firaxis and 2K themselves did a horrible job in marketing these changes -- both the cosmetic, and the structural. No advance review discussed this, no beta testers, and don't even mention the atrocious web site that couldn't even get the cast of characters right.

In a market of gaming systems where nothing (usually) goes wrong, a well-known PC game with a bunch of "technical oopsies" will not be the success I'm sure they envisioned.

Noone likes it, but this is normal, everyone who bought he game on release day knew this would happen to some people. Noone's downgrading the problems, everyone acknowledges that the they need to be fixed, ASAP (and that's just what Firaxis is doing). But let's keep perspective and acknowledge that that Civ4 is not a 'disastrous' or 'horrible' game or 'a major screwup' or 'rushed' or whatnot just because of an incompatibility issue. Everyone who can get it to work (and that's the vast majority) is raving on about how great this game is, the user ratings on Gamespot and the like are over the roof, despite these problems.

Bugs, yes. But being unable to play the game entirely? No. A strategy game at $50 a pop ought to be playable on an overwhelming majority (and stop with this "the vast majority can play..." bull. It's way too early to tell) of systems with minor glitches and bumps. Not rendering the leaders, or the terrain, or movies that crash computers, and so on is stretching that "understanding zone" just a tad.

And no one -- in my opinion -- is calling Civ4 a horrible game. But the marketing, promotion, and education about the title and its transition was piss-poor. Come on. Your official site up, what, 5 days before release? Sure, it was up before that, but was full of erroneous information.

Previews and reviews that score it through the roof, sure. Personal accounts from both this site and CivFanatics, yes. Beta testers, moderations, Firaxis staff themselves -- and NO ONE THOUGHT to address:
1. The laptop market?
2. Casual gamers that were used to a low-size, low-requirement franchise?

Yes, the game needs to evolve. Yes, the game is fab (and I've played it). But they were so caught up in unit upgrades, and sprawling cities, and unit size, and the oh-so-touchy subject of religion that they didn't even educate the fan base on "Woah, there. The game may be too much for your system."

On that, I will say it was, and continues to be horrible. Gamespot can give the game all the 9.3s in the world -- they can give it a perfect 10 for all I care -- but 2K and Firaxis have missed (and angered) a LARGE chunk of the market by isolating the title into the "ivory tower" of computer games.

Me? I'll take a good look at Rise of Nations, which isn't nearly as buggy, and will run on my lower systems.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Novaya Havoc
Previews and reviews that score it through the roof, sure. Personal accounts from both this site and CivFanatics, yes. Beta testers, moderations, Firaxis staff themselves -- and NO ONE THOUGHT to address:
1. The laptop market?
2. Casual gamers that were used to a low-size, low-requirement franchise?

Yes, the game needs to evolve. Yes, the game is fab (and I've played it). But they were so caught up in unit upgrades, and sprawling cities, and unit size, and the oh-so-touchy subject of religion that they didn't even educate the fan base on "Woah, there. The game may be too much for your system."

There's been numerous threads here and over at CivFanatics informing people that they may have to upgrade their systems in order to play the game. I've known since the early summer that I'd need a video card that supports T&L. If people don't want to pay attention to what's being mentioned, over and over again, that's not the fault of Firaxis.

Nor is the exclusion of laptop users. They can't be held responsible for manufacturers that want to cut corners and not include technology that is becoming a commonplace requirement for 3D programs today, and has been around for at least 5 years. It's about time they realized that those machines are being used for more than just creating spreadsheets and Powerpoint presentations.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Novaya Havoc
That's simply not sound.

Ah, but it is. Just work in tech support for a while and you'll find out soon enough. Nobody ever calls in so say what a great product you're selling, even if it's selling like hotcakes, but they're all over the place if something isn't working the way it's supposed to. That's just how human beings work...

Where does THAT ratio come from? Apolyton land? What's the ratio for CivFanatics, then?

It's true for the gaming fansites in general (though the exact number may differ a bit from game to game). The number of active users on CFC and Apolyton and other major fansites combined is probably about 2000, the total number of Civ3 sales is around 2-3 million (and that's not counting warez). So it works out about right.

What's the ratio compared to the reviewers on Amazon? What constitutes a "regular?" You can't make a prediction about a mass market based on that.

That's why it's a rule of thumb, not a definition.

(the PC is a dying gaming platform)

The reports of the PC's demise have been greatly exaggerated. But that's for another thread

Many have no knowledge of what a "video driver" is, or DirectX, or any of these additional "requisites."

You grossly underestimate the average gamer. This is Civ, not the Sims or a console. By necessity any regular PC gamer has at least a basic understanding of these things.

A strategy game at $50 a pop ought to be playable on an overwhelming majority

It is. Get over it.

And no one -- in my opinion -- is calling Civ4 a horrible game.

Then you haven't been reading this forum in the past few days.

But the marketing, promotion, and education about the title and its transition was piss-poor.

I'll be the first to I agree the marketing could've been better, but I don't see what that has to do with the compatibility bugs.

2. Casual gamers that were used to a low-size, low-requirement franchise?

These were a key concern throughout the development process. And plenty of laptop testing has been done as well.

"Woah, there. The game may be too much for your system."

The sys specs are quite reasonable, and the general range of them (though not the exact details) were announced will in advance. My by now over-4-year-old system can run it smoothly. I upgraded my video card to get even better performance (even though it was doing okay before that, barring development bugs that were fixed well before release), but hey, it's a 4-year-old system, what can I expect?

Me? I'll take a good look at Rise of Nations, which isn't nearly as buggy, and will run on my lower systems.

RoN needed a couple of whopping large patches to get there, the same howlers that are here now were here 3 years ago when RoN was released as well (well, by and large not exactly the same ones, but the same type of post(er)s). Out of the box, it was having a lot of trouble with ATI cards, especially older ones. Sound familiar?

[DoubleBlade]

TTWO stock: down 0.32 1.59%. This on the day after CIV IV was released. That should say something...

[ktbutts]

I'm looking forward to getting home and checking out the fix they propose.

Also, to be clear, while I was really bummed last night when I started this thread, Firaxis has made some of my favorite games (SMAC is still in rotation, Gettysburg is great fun), and I wish them the best with this title and all others.

I would reccommend that they re-brand their "Pre-order" marketing phase into "Pilot" and release it a week or two prior to being offered in stores.

That would manage expectations of the Civ fan base and hopefully diminish some of the bloodlust visible on the boards.