You gotta be kidding me

[Solver]

Official forums typically suck . They are overloaded with tech issues, but nothing else. Generally, game fansites are far better than the official sites, thus the real discussions are going on there.

Anyhow, we do have a good thing -> not everyone with an ATI has the issue, and some of the people who had it could resolve it, so looks like there's no tragedy.

[bionicjames]

It looks like most of the people with 9800s are able to fix it, but anything earlier, 9600s and 9550s can't. Everybody here seems like genuinely nice people though, the mud-slinging has been low key thus far. Hehehe that's probably due to the target market of the game though.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Solver
I don't think anyone is denying that there is a compatibility issue with ATI cards, but given that less than 5% of users who visited yesterday posted about problems, it's not that huge.

Is that 5% of poly's total users, or just the civ4 forums?

Because, you know, the majority of Poly doesn't play civ anymore. Many non-US players haven't gotten it yet.

I understand that we shouldn't blow this out of proportion, but we also shouldn't minimize it. Let's present it as it is. And, it is horrible. There's no point in screaming or pointing fingers. We're pissed. Firaxis is pissed.

They're working on it. Standing here typing angry words on a forum isn't going to change anything. They're not going to work any faster because some angsty kid talks about their stock price. They're busting their balls over there, I can assure you of that.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by MarkG
over 1100 unique registered users visited in the last 24 hours

45 people posted in Trip's "Possible Fixes" thread

Assuming that all the posters that have had rendering issues have posted, this is still a 5% level of error with just this bug. That's really high, like 1 in 20. And we all know that not everyone with issues is posting, in fact I almost didn't until I "flipped my lid" LOL.

The good news is that Firaxis isn't EA, so they're stand-up guys and girls. Thank God for that.

[Solver]

Because, you know, the majority of Poly doesn't play civ anymore. Many non-US players haven't gotten it yet.

Most Apolytoners, in fact, never visit the forums anymore.

I have seen the work that Firaxis have been doing, and I don't blame them. I am more inclined to blame 2K on the matter, who have also apparently shipped a large number of faulty discs, plus the French tech tree issue.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by moondogger


This is funny to me. If about 5% of people who bought Halo 2 on launch day COULDN'T RUN THE FREAKIN' GAME, there would be rioting in the streets. If one in 20 consumers can't run your game, it *is* huge.

Very true. And this is only taking into account the 5% that can't run the game because of this one particular issue. I'd have to dust off my old software engineering texts, but IIRC an acceptable level of fault tolerance is no higher than 2%, i.e., fatal exceptions. Your average garden variety bug doesn't count.

But again, everyone here has to admit that Firaxis isn't EA or UbiSoft. Those guys are pounding away at this, and I bet that their release party was very short-lived.

[Wildcat]

Here we go or in my case don't go. I have the wonderful CD data error so I will not even know if it works on my computer for another day or two, when the stores will have more copies. Only the preorder special editions showed up yesterday.

In any case I just joined and posted to add to the game is broken Count although if 2K read their emails I would think the count will be higher already.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Solver

Because, you know, the majority of Poly doesn't play civ anymore. Many non-US players haven't gotten it yet.

I have seen the work that Firaxis have been doing, and I don't blame them. I am more inclined to blame 2K on the matter, who have also apparently shipped a large number of faulty discs, plus the French tech tree issue.

Yes the publisher is likely more to blame, cuz they're the fools in the suits that act like Chicken Little if they don't have it on such-and-such a date. A bunch of business degrees running around and telling the developers how things should be done, LOL. I mean if I as a software developer tried to tell an NFL QB when to run the counter trey, wouldn't that be kinda silly? But the developers are at their mercy, sigh.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Solver
Most Apolytoners, in fact, never visit the forums anymore.

Yes, but you were referencing visits. I should have said "Most active Apolytoners do not play civ 4". I apologize.

Originally posted by Solver
I have seen the work that Firaxis have been doing, and I don't blame them. I am more inclined to blame 2K on the matter, who have also apparently shipped a large number of faulty discs, plus the French tech tree issue.

While I know and respect that Firaxis is workign their asses off right now to fix this, I don't see how you can play Take2 for an error with graphic cards and the rendering. The only concievable way they could impact that would be to pressure Firaxis to release the game early, while untested (hey, it's been done before, remember? ). This was not the case as far as I've heard. Civ IV was proclaimed "done" and in test a while ago.

This error was unseen. That's all there is to it. Whatever the hell is wrong with these ATi cards, no one at Firaxis saw it. The fact that some people with ATis have no problems just makes it worse. You can't point and say "How could they bever test on ATis?!?!?"

So, whatever. Ranting and arguing won't fix anything. But it is fun

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Inverse Icarus

While I know and respect that Firaxis is workign their asses off right now to fix this, I don't see how you can play Take2 for an error with graphic cards and the rendering. The only concievable way they could impact that would be to pressure Firaxis to release the game early, while untested (hey, it's been done before, remember? ). This was not the case as far as I've heard. Civ IV was proclaimed "done" and in test a while ago.

I think it's very reasonable to assume Take2 put pressure on Firaxis to release. The entire industry is producing less and less stable software, for a few reasons.

1. Software is so much more complex than, say, 10 years ago.
2. There are so many more PC platforms to ensure compatibility with than 10 years ago.
3. The publishers are becoming so much more intrusive in the s/w production process than they used to.

I mean the current situation is probably a combination of all of the above, but who really knows? At least Firaxis is working diligently on the issue. I'd hate to have been a Firaxian last night, man I bet there were Cheetos bags and Red Bull all over the place hehe.

[Solver]

While I know and respect that Firaxis is workign their asses off right now to fix this, I don't see how you can play Take2 for an error with graphic cards and the rendering. The only concievable way they could impact that would be to pressure Firaxis to release the game early, while untested (hey, it's been done before, remember? ). This was not the case as far as I've heard. Civ IV was proclaimed "done" and in test a while ago.

It very certainly was tested on ATI cards, the gold build as well. What I can't imagine is why would none of the Firaxis/2K testers run into the issue.

[jadelith]

while I think this is unacceptable, it is understandable I understand that there are way too many system specs to test. But the best thing you can do about this is release a 10 turn demo, so that people could see if their system runs it or not. It is VERY frustrating for a die-hard civ1-2-3 fan (e.g. civ 4 is the only game in my computer right now ;p (and it doesn't work hehe)), to buy the game, come home, take the fresh cd's out of the box, install, and get a "failed to initialize renderer" error (even after formatting c:\).

[Locutus]

Again, noone denying there is a problem, but it's a problem for some people -- and they are the ones posting there. Most of the people not posting here or other fansites don't have a problem, or they would be. And considering the huge number of presales that's saying something. I have an ATI card too, as have many if not most of the testers (many of us actually bought ATIs specifically because for quite some time during development Nvidia cards were the ones causing all the problems), it's working fine for me and all of them. It's not a problem for all ATI cards but for very specific cards in very specific setups. Compatibility problems like this arise for every PC game that's ever been released (10 years ago you just never heard about them because we didn't have the Internet to report them on), they are simply unavoidable because developers can't test every of the trillions of combos of PC hardware and software that are out there. That doesn't make it right or any less unfortunate for the people affected, but that doesn't make Civ4 a disaster or the most bugged game ever either. Anyone who claims that obviously never played Civ3

They're working on it. Standing here typing angry words on a forum isn't going to change anything. They're not going to work any faster because some angsty kid talks about their stock price. They're busting their balls over there, I can assure you of that.

Who are you and what did you do to UberKruX?

[Novaya Havoc]

*cough*

I lurk and sporadically post here at Apolyton, and -- for the record -- my Civ4 has a slew of graphical bug issues. So add that to your "percentage."

And good lord -- stop downsizing the issue and PLEASE don't discredit "new registers." I mean, come on. What -- someone who buys Civ4 and just registers to talk about tech issues now has an invalid claim? Classism on internet boards -- I'll never get it.

Anyhoot...
We have had the FIRST release day of the game. One day. ONE. So yeah -- the only people you're going to see posting on this issue are the bulk of the extreme fanbase. Casual gamers or those who haven't picked up the game yet are going to get quite the surprise when they do. And don't even mention those people who are holding this game out as a Christmas gift.

This is why the PC game market is so small and continues to tank aside from very specialized, multiplayer games. The technical elements are out of touch with the average consumer. And then what you get is an "ivory tower" of PC gaming, in which the few who read hardware spec mags and update their system regularly (at costs comparable to console gaming) throw out the concerns of the mass market where most people are concerned with their Internet speed, the functionality of AIM, and if MSOffice works okay.

Firaxis and 2K want this game to SELL. SELL. And if you want a better product -- whether an expansion or a Civ5 -- you want this game to sell, too. And yes, that is going to mean you (and the developers) are going to have to deal with those pesky "Settler class" complaints. Yes, it is going to mean that people are going to get pissed about updating drivers and video cards when it seems so obvious to you.

Because as computers themselves entered the mass market and became less and less a "geek" activity, computers had to become more simple and user-friendly. And that will reflect itself in the gaming market, and will affect demand.

So stop downplaying this as 5%, or 10%, or 12 registered users, or 4 registered REGULAR users, or whatever strata you want to downgrade this issue. I feel like I'm watching the US government trying to downplay poverty statistics. Downgrading it won't make it go away -- quite simply, these graphical bugs and technical issues will have severe reprecussions for the game itself and it's base. Sure, not the established base, but you bet your buns any new or potential market.

-Ben

[Solver]

The big difference between the developer and the publisher is that the publisher wants the game to sell. The developer wants the game to sell, but also the fans to be satisfied and the game to be good. Publishers typically don't give a damn about the quality of the product as long as it indeed sells.