Manhattan project

[markusw7]

Hi this is my first time posting here (though i've been here looking for tips on the previous games).

Does anyone else think that its a bit strange that EVERYONE gets nukes from your hard work building the manhattan project?

In civ 3 i used to edit the game so that it was a national wonder. In real life every nation that has nuclear weapons had to do there own research and didn't get nukes overnight just because some other guy got it.

I realise that making it a national wonder in Civ4 might bring about a few problems, like when someone else has the nuke and you can't built bomb shelters (actually are bomb shelters tied to the manhattan project?).

What has always annoyed me about it is that in some games (MP mostly) you could be equal with another nation and you try to get nukes to break the deadlock. You build the manhattan project and nothing changes because then your enemy has nukes aswell.

[LordShiva]

Yeah in Civ3 I made it a national wonder and renamed it to Nuclear Test.

[GeoModder]

Welcome to the posting part of 'Poly.

Personally, I don't find it strange. Once Pandora's Box (nukes) is openend, it's normal that everyone else in town will attempt all sort of ways that can't see the daylight to have the same ability. I think it would even be more of a game breaker NOT to allow it that way.

[aebbeka]

Very simple explanation. A new weapon is discovered, Bill Clinton sells it to other nations.

[markusw7]

Originally posted by aebbeka
Very simple explanation. A new weapon is discovered, Bill Clinton sells it to other nations.

wouldn't that be gifting them nukes without them being able to make them by themselves.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Personally, I don't find it strange. Once Pandora's Box (nukes) is openend, it's normal that everyone else in town will attempt all sort of ways that can't see the daylight to have the same ability. I think it would even be more of a game breaker NOT to allow it that way.

I think it is a diffference if you get something overnight or you have to put your own efforts in it. Maybe a national project for everyone, but if someone completed this project it should be cheaper for everyone else to complete there nuke project.

-Martin

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by aebbeka
Very simple explanation. A new weapon is discovered, Bill Clinton sells it to other nations.

We have this joke in India:

Q: Why did Pakistan wait so long after India's tests before they tested their own nukes?
A: The had to translate the manual from Chinese.

[markusw7]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


I think it is a diffference if you get something overnight or you have to put your own efforts in it. Maybe a national project for everyone, but if someone completed this project it should be cheaper for everyone else to complete there nuke project.

-Martin

That seems like the perfect solution and shouldn't be too hard to mod

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by LordShiva


We have this joke in India:

Q: Why did Pakistan wait so long after India's tests before they tested their own nukes?
A: The had to translate the manual from Chinese.

I like it

I think in some ways it's a balancing issue, not a realism issue.

Nukes are in the game to be a balancing feature, to allow 'backwards' civs to have a chance to catch up to more advanced civs. If you require building the manhattan project for each civ, that means the advanced civ has nukes way before others - and can use them to widen his/her lead.

OTOH, if you allow ALL to have them (assuming adequate tech), once one civ builds the MP, then:
1) Advanced civ has an incentive NOT to build MP (assuming several civs are near in tech development)
2) Backward civs have a chance at getting back in the race against advanced civ, by no longer being outclassed militarily

[Addled Platypus]

consider it a free spy attempt

[Tattila the Hun]

Remember the Rosenbergs!

[AoA]

I like Martin's idea. Would it be easier to mod in making ManProj a great Wonder, which allows all civ's to build their own cheaper Nuke Tests which would count as a National Wonder.
ManProj would count as a Nuke Test for 1st civ of course. But other than bragging rights, what else could the ManProj provide as a benefit, since there's no incentive to go first? (maybe no one building nukes is its own incentive?) Maybe having sole rights to nukes for X turns (which is what happened in real life)

[kofeiini]

I also think it's wrong that all the civs benefit when only one does the work. How about: The civ that bulids Manhattan project gets 1 free nuke with the project when it is finished. Or maybe something like nukes would be 75% cost for the Manhattan project owner.

Also Martin's idea about small wonders after Manhattan project is pretty good. But what if there is a race for manhattan project. One civ finishes 1 turn before other, and the other civ has to start the small project from zero?

[AoA]

Let anyone who has started a Manhattan Project convert his shields to the smaller project with little or no penalty if he is beaten to completing it. Maybe make it need to be at least a certain percentage done to be transferred. Of course, you can always choose not to build the 2nd follow-up project...but once someone has nukes we all want nukes. They're like ice cream in that way.

[darthx86]

My proposed solution: Keep the Manhattan Project as a Great Wonder, but have it allow a new Small Wonder called "Nuclear Program" that everyone else can build after the MP is complete. The MP would function as the NP for the civ that completed it, so they can build nukes right away.