Apolyton Civ4 PREVIEW (By Solver) - Part 3 online

[Solver]

Surprise - declare war, move into their lands, attack. No RoP-rape .

[ajbera]

Solver, IIRC, you don't need to declare a state religion. Can you adopt the theocracy civic without declaring a state religion (in effect a pagan theocracy) that prevents the spread of "alien" faiths?

Also, if I'm a Christian country, my peeps will get uppity if I attack another Christian nation. If I attack an Islamic nation (for example), will other Islamic nations I'm not at war with think less of me?

[Solver]

Solver, IIRC, you don't need to declare a state religion. Can you adopt the theocracy civic without declaring a state religion (in effect a pagan theocracy) that prevents the spread of "alien" faiths?

If you have any religion at all in at least one city, certainly. If you have no religion at all, I'm unsure about whether you can use religious civics.

Also, if I'm a Christian country, my peeps will get uppity if I attack another Christian nation. If I attack an Islamic nation (for example), will other Islamic nations I'm not at war with think less of me?

Not certainly, but likely. If you attack an Islamic nation, then friends of that nation will think less of you. It's very likely that the other Islamic nations are friends of the one that you declared war on, and if so, yes, they will think less of you. Plus, any cities of yours that practice Islam will experience increased unhappiness in the situation.

[Xmudder]

In the civics screenshot with your preview, all but 1 civic has been researched, but the civ is still using barbarism and paganism.

If this is one of your screenshots (and not from IGN or somewhere), why are you only running 3 advanced civics? If it isn't from one of your games, why would anyone pass up the benefits of Free Religion and Free Speech (for example) for the basic civics?

[Solver]

That's not a screenshot of my game. Running Barbarism there is just plain stupid.

[lockstep]

Regarding civics - is there any 'basic' civic that is not obviously inferior to the four 'advanced' civics in its category?

(If not, then we're dealing with 4^5, i.e. 1024 combinations of 'advanced' civics, and not with 3125 combinations.)

[Solver]

It's more like 1024, yes. The basic ones (Barbarism, Paganism, etc) don't have any bonuses, as you cans ee in screens, and are practically useless.

[Xmudder]

The most recent screenshot has Organized Religion at +25% building speed, almost as good as a forge. This is a chnage from +1 happy person per city. Can you comment on that? It seems that Organized Religion will be a very desirable civic, and Montheism a "get first" tech.

What is enabled by Prining Press? The icons look intriguing.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Solver
It's more like 1024, yes. The basic ones (Barbarism, Paganism, etc) don't have any bonuses, as you cans ee in screens, and are practically useless.

Hum. I don't agree. There will be times when one of the basic choices is a valid option, and you don't want to change just yet. Each change gives 1 turn of anarchy, which means you want to combine changes of different aspects in one turn (otherwise it costs you twice the anarchy). Also, you don't want to switch during a golden age, so if you discover the first civic during your GA you will stay with the basic ones.

Of course you don't want to switch to a no-bonus civic, but you can opt not to change away from a no-bonus civic. Hence 5^5 choices.

DeepO

[Solver]

DeepO, I'd say it's 1024 functional combinations and a few more in between. I agree though that sometimes it's not neccessary to switch from your basic civic, especially if you're not Spi.

The most recent screenshot has Organized Religion at +25% building speed, almost as good as a forge. This is a chnage from +1 happy person per city. Can you comment on that? It seems that Organized Religion will be a very desirable civic, and Montheism a "get first" tech.

Uhmm, you misunderstood it. It's not +25% building speed, it's +25% shields when building buildings, or in other words, +25% build speed for city improvements. It's very good for getting infrastructure in place, those Markets and other stuff.

What is enabled by Prining Press? The icons look intriguing.

Meh, I don't know the tech tree by heart yet. Link to icons? I could tell you from those.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by DeepO
Of course you don't want to switch to a no-bonus civic, but you can opt not to change away from a no-bonus civic. Hence 5^5 choices.

Timing of civic-switching will be important, but that's not the same as discussing which civics combinations may be 'better' under given circumstances. In Civ3 terms: I've read threads in the strategy forum about when to switch out of Despotism, and also threads about the advantages of Monarchy vs. Republic. I can't remember strategy discussions about the advantages of Despotism vs. any other government.

Hence 4^5 choices in Civ4.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by lockstep
Timing of civic-switching will be important, but that's not the same as discussing which civics combinations may be 'better' under given circumstances. In Civ3 terms: I've read threads in the strategy forum about when to switch out of Despotism, and also threads about the advantages of Monarchy vs. Republic. I can't remember strategy discussions about the advantages of Despotism vs. any other government.

Hence 4^5 choices in Civ4.

It's not always just a timing issue. Some civics give you bonusses that you don't need (e.g. military bonusses in a peaceful game). The cost of switching just isn't worth it... it's a choice.

Re: the advantages of despotism against other goverments: I changed a couple of times towards despotism, especially in deity. If you are constantly at war, despotism becomes a favourable choice over demo or rep. If you are religious and urgently need to poprush defenders in a large empire, despotism is better than communism.

The same kind fo thing will happen in CIV, even if politics in Civ3 was a package deal where each choice always had a plus and a minus side. In CIV, most bonusses are plusses, while the disadvantage of most civics is that you don't receive the bonus of a parallel civic.

Of course, I too agree that you will have certain favourites in combinations, which on a functional level mean you will have something like 100 combinations to choose from. But that was not really the point that started this debate, right?

DeepO

[alva]

At least not before the game is out.

Good to see btw.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by DeepO

I changed a couple of times towards despotism, especially in deity. If you are constantly at war, despotism becomes a favourable choice over demo or rep. If you are religious and urgently need to poprush defenders in a large empire, despotism is better than communism.

Okay, I confess that I'm not a deity-level player (can win on emperor if I'm willing to micromanage), and the idea of switching to despotism never occured to me. Even if there's a situation where pop-rushing is the way to go (and therefore demo and rep are inferior), I don't see when despotism would be better than communism, but maybe things start getting weird on demigod.

EDIT: I'm assuming that communism is available.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by alva
At least not before the game is out.

Good to see btw.

Too busy lately for gaming, but I couldn't miss the release of CIV

DeepO