Would you enjoy Civ less if your home civ was not in?

[Verenti]

Canada is two nations in one state: British and French.

We may not be proper repersentations of either at times but, rest assured, we are indeed both. (Not everyone is both, But the New French Settlers didn't assimilate (culturally. They're supposedly good subjects of the Monarchy. The Party Quebecois sorta states that they aren't living up to their end of the bargain.) as part of a treaty with the British that they stay British Subjects and We'll allow them to carry on with their culture. This was ideal at the time because we didn't want them to become aligned with the US. They evidently didn't want this either.

As for the increasingly Anglo-Hispanic North America. I hadn't seen a Spanish person in person until like 3 years ago (And when I did see one I thought she was Indian for the longest time until she corrected me. Much more Indians here than Spanish... And by Indian I mean from India, not Native American), and since then I've seen less than ten. I think it's fairer to say an increasingly Anglo-Hispanic US.

Hell, I've seen more Turks than I have seen Spaniards.

In the end. No Quebec isn't a nation, no more than Canada is. They're part of the French Nation.

[Niptium]

Originally posted by Verenti
In the end. No Quebec isn't a nation, no more than Canada is. They're part of the French Nation.

What ? Errr ... No.

Québec is as different of France than the USA is different from England. Same thing goes for Canada.

Do the Canadians consider themselves British ? I don't think so - they say they are Canadians...

Same thing goes for Quebeckers - we say we are Quebeckers. We are the offsprings of French colonization in North America just like Canada and the United States are offsprings of British colonization. But that doesn't make you or me a member of the two europeans nations... Americans make fun of british way of speaking so the Quebeckers do with the French's way of speaking errr... french... and the French also eat their dinner at 22h while we eat ours at 17h... French movies and songs are pretty different than Québec's own industry... well that's not a good comparison point with the USA and the Uk since the later one is still searching for it's own cultural movie making industry...

[clausewitz]

Maybe we all have to wait for Civ 5 to see a game where colonies like brit. Canada, Quebec or Australia can develop into normal nations - or even into warmongering super powers (like the US)... ;-)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Niptium
Well - if you were a bit more cultured, with all due respect - ...

Gosh, does your course also include how to contradict yourself within the space of a single sentence ?

And I thought it wa only the British who could insult people and make it sound like a compliment.

Thanks for the lessons on Spanish history- you missed out the Galicians, and ignored Andalucia and the gypsies, and declined to give me a lesson on the Moriscos and Marranos, and the remnants of the Mozarabs so we can't have everything I suppose.

Oh, and don't forget that Valencia has a distinct variety of Spanish language, too.


By the way- you're a bit off on your notion France being a nation of just the French people- since there are obviously also Corsicans, Bretons and other linguistic and cultural minorities, including Basques.



Verenti- just because you haven't met a Spanish (or Hispanic people where you are, doesn't contradict what I said- that North America, encompassing not only Canada but also the United States and Mexico has a growing Hispanic population.

Why, I even met Guatemalans and Nicaraguans in Vancouver and I'd only been there two days.

Thsi is why you'll regularly see 'disputes' in the United States about making English an 'official' language, and the growing penetration of Spanglish use.

[Verenti]

You may have a different culture, but you are part of the same nation (as the French). If that wasn't true, then (Now, I'm not sure of this) Bermuda could be a nation, Prehaps Gibralter, Cyprus, etc. etc.

I'm pretty sure all those listed, Aren't.

[GeoModder]

So, does Quebec has a separate government then within Canada? (in other words, does it rule itself in alot of matters and it doesn't need to follow common law for the rest of the country?)

[clausewitz]

To come back to the topic of Civ4 a little bit again: wouldn't it make sense to see the question of which civilization should be in Civ4 in the context of a world map game? I mean, there I would expect America to be settled by underdevelopped native nations and then be "colonized" at one stage. I would not want a highly developed Indian civilization covering all north-american terrain and neither highly developed US-americans landing in Europe in the 15th century...

With that strict definition I would say: no (former) colonies in the game... of course that would not work with the US for marketing and other reasons...

But, by the way, this is why I used to play civ3 with crippled nations and the world map without the USA. Sometimes I used America as Israel though...

[Niptium]

Originally posted by GeoModder
So, does Quebec has a separate government then within Canada? (in other words, does it rule itself in alot of matters and it doesn't need to follow common law for the rest of the country?)

Yes. In fact Canada is ruled under the Common law and Québec under the Napoleon code...

Québec has exclusive juridiction power on health, education, economic development, national holidays, hour time (if the USA change the summer hour changes - only Québec government can decide if we are gonna follow them), social aid politics, working politics, natural ressources, towns and municipalities, courts and law enforcement and language policies...

and there is shared powers like immigration, and to some extent environment...

The Canadian gov has exclusive powers on the army, the Canadian currency, the checking booth at the borders (douanes in french)... but the constitution says that the Canadian government can choose to spend money where it sees it fit - wich causes the Canadian government to clash with Québec's a lot when it want to speand money in Québec's juridictions...

[GeoModder]

Well, then I think I can call Quebec more autonomous then the french speaking community in my country.

[Verenti]

Originally posted by Niptium
Québec has exclusive juridiction power on health, education, economic development, national holidays, hour time (if the USA change the summer hour changes - only Québec government can decide if we are gonna follow them), social aid politics, working politics, natural ressources, towns and municipalities, courts and law enforcement and language policies...

and there is shared powers like immigration, and to some extent environment...

The Canadian gov has exclusive powers on the army, the Canadian currency, the checking booth at the borders (douanes in french)... but the constitution says that the Canadian government can choose to spend money where it sees it fit - wich causes the Canadian government to clash with Québec's a lot when it want to speand money in Québec's juridictions...

That's the same in like all the provinces. Atleast I know in Nova Scotia we can delegate our own Civic Holidays, Economic Policies, Education, Social Aid, Taxes, etc. etc. but we're not autonomous regions under Parliment.

And correct me if I'm wrong, even since the beginning of Confederation, Quebec has had to bow to the whims of Parliment, just like the rest of Her Majesty's provinces


Edit: Please note I didn't list everything he listed, Its true Quebec has certain privilidges to keep them happy.

[clausewitz]

I would say that on the one hand Québec has some special previliges, on the other hand these don't go further than the ones that our provinces ("Bundesländer") in Germany or the different states of the UK have. So this is just the way things work in federal republics.

And apart from that, I think the question about the autonomous status of a region does not say so much about the actual culture. What I mean: if Québec was completely opressed by the former british parts and would not have its federal rights, would that make the québecois any less an own nation or culture?

So from what I know Canada can be compared with Spain very well... and in our times, especially since we have the EU, the problem of whether you are Catalan or Castellan does not really matter any more.

Maybe this would be another nice civic: status of minorities... from opression to self determination...

[JonahFalcon]

No, since I would be able to play the Brits and they become Americans. (See: AOE3 for a Civ-type game without Americans, though they do have NATIVE Americans.)

[Niptium]

Originally posted by clausewitz
I would say that on the one hand Québec has some special previliges, on the other hand these don't go further than the ones that our provinces ("Bundesländer") in Germany or the different states of the UK have. So this is just the way things work in federal republics.

Well the thing is Québec has all the same powers as the other provinces. There is also some other powers that only Québec has since the Canadian provinces decided to do their national united way but Québec opted out... I'm thinking of blood collecting (the Canadian Red cross used to do it, now it's Héma-Québec), the National Fund for retired people is another good example. Immigration, on the other hand, is a shared custody in Québec while it's Ottawa's privilege in every other province.

The thing is - a political entity with it's own powers doesn't make a nation. It may in the long term... but no one will tell with a straight face that North Dakota or Prince Edward Island is a nation... Québec is a nation because - well it is... the nation was already there BEFORE the government of Québec ever came a reality. This very nation started existing at one point or another during French colonization - when the french colonists along the St-Lawrence river started to feel different from the ones in France and started referring to themselves as «Canadiens» and not French men...

[Robert]

1. The dutch were in CtP and in c3c, I liked it, but didn't really care.

2. of course the americans should be in civ. They're the most important modern civilization. Civ is not only about ancient civs, it's about modern civs as well.

3. Israel is the main civ that's been missing all those incarnations. Israel may be the most influencive civs ever. The entire western civilization is build upon the hebrew culture and ethical system.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Niptium


Québec is a nation because - well it is...

Amazing logic.


Oh, pull the other one- it's less of a nation than Brittany- or Haiti .