Apolyton Civ4 PREVIEW (By Solver) - Part 2 online

[Sirian]

Originally posted by korn469
well it sounds like if a Philosophical leader builds the wonder that grants faster GP's then that civ will have a major advantage in the game. Also financial looks like one of the weaker traits, especially if you compare it to industrious.

You're assuming that the wonder that boosts Great People birth rate would -MULTIPLY- with the bonus from Philosophical, but it could instead -ADD- with it.


Multiplicative:

Total = Base * (1 + Modifier1) * (1 + Modifier2) * (1 + Modifier3)


Additive:

Bonus = Base * (Modifier1 + Modifier2 + Modifier3)

Total = Base + Bonus


Great People. The modifiers are what? Let's say the wonder gives +50%, Philosophical trait is +100%, and you are running Pacifism which gives another (let's say) 50%. Let's take a base of 10 birth rate increase per turn.


Multiplicative

(10 * 1.5 * 2.0 * 1.5) = 45 per turn


Additive

10 + (10 * (0.5 + 1.0 + 0.5)) = 30 per turn


If we take away the 50% bonus from the wonder, leaving Philosophical and Pacifism as the only bonuses, it would look like this:


Multiplicative

(10 * 2.0 * 1.5) = 30 per turn


Additive

10 + (10 * (1.0 + 0.5)) = 25 per turn


Note that under the Additive math, the worth of any given bonus is NOT AFFECTED by the presence or absence of other bonuses. The multiplicative math causes each additional bonus to stack exponentially.

Multiplicative math is the bane of game balance.


Most imbalances in games result from runaway multiplicative math.

Take Diablo II, for instance. In the original release version of that game, the Corpse Explosion skill would detonate the fallen bodies of enemies, doing a large percentage of their total hit points in damage to surviving enemies in range. The problem is, in games with more players, the hit points of the monsters would increase, and so would the damage from the Corpse Explosion. So Corpse Explosion was just as effective in an eight player game as when by yourself, yet you could rack up a lot more experience for a fight that wasn't any harder. Compare to other skills that were not multiplied, which were increasingly LESS effective with more players in the game (which was supposed to be the idea!)

If Civ4 is filled end to end with multiplicative math, it is going to be unbalanced mess. I would take the fact that one trait combo has been deemed unbalanced, where the bonuses multiply each other, as a good sign.


- Sirian


EDITS: I was adding the base in twice, corrected now.

[Aks K]

@Siridan: I hope they are additive else the trait would be too strong. Solver can you help us here?

Aks K

[Solver]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
You don't know how disappointed I am to hear about espionage Solver. After the joke they gave us in Civ3, I really thought they had learned their lessons. Unfortunately, they seemed to have 'thrown the baby out with the bathwater'-bringing back spy units rather than simply expending all their 'espionage' energies on making the Civ3 espionage system much more fun and effective. I don't think I will be TRULY happy with the game until ALL the strategies are on a roughly equal footing-including 'dirty tricks' !
I would like to second the question, though, you did express your disatisfaction with espionage to Firaxians?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Don't take my words too far, I didn't say the Civ4 espionage system sucked. I sad it's rather underwhelming, and probably not as cool as the rest of the game concepts. It's a hard thing to get right, espionage, and the current model is average - althouh not Civ3-horrible.

I have mentioned to Firaxians that I'm disappointed, in fact, some things about espionage got tweaked, but it didn't evolve into a great concept, like the awesome diplomacy system and some other stuff. I'd still like to say that Firaxians, and Soren especially, are a great team to work with, because they *really* listen to what their testers say.

[rickb]

I seriously doubt the bonuses are multiplicative, they've always been additive in Civ games. Like the Factory + Manufacturing Plant + Power Plant to boost shield production in Civ 3 was additive.

Yeah total mistake on my math in the example before, it would be 10 *extra* GP points for 15 total (300%) with 5 base GP + 100% Philosophical + 100% Pacifism.

[alva]

/me thinks Siridian knows what he's talking about.

[Solver]

Sirian has it right, Civ4 uses additive bonuses for that all.

[Harovan]

Civ3 had a classical example of multicative bonuses; there were three wonders each doubling the science output of a city. If you built them in the same city, well chosen with a river, some water tiles or if you were lucky even some gold or gem resources, you could have it's already high beaker production increased by the factor eight.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by rickb
I seriously doubt the bonuses are multiplicative, they've always been additive in Civ games. Like the Factory + Manufacturing Plant + Power Plant to boost shield production in Civ 3 was additive.

I hope you're right. Solver says so, too, but this is one of those things I'd have to see for myself. I know for a fact that Civ1 had some instances of multiplicative math. For instance, Colossus and Copernicus's Observatory. One would give you a bunch of extra commerce in the city and the other would give you +100% science. They were more powerful together than either separated. I imagine the Philosophical and Industrious traits in Civ4 were behaving similarly.

Multiplicative Math for one city is not necessarily bad. (That might be one way that a civ with fewer cities can compete vs larger civs?) If there are civ-wide multiplications going on, though, that would not be good! Whatever options provide that would quickly be viewed as the only right choice.


- Sirian

[Solver]

Multiplicative:

A city with six GP points per turn. Philosophical makes that 12. Pacifism makes that 24. Minor Wonder doubling GP people in that city makes it 48. Too much.

Additive:

Base = 6 points. Phi + Pacifism + Wonder = +300%. 18 + 6 = 24. Much more sane.

[Sirian]

Sanity is good!

[RobC]

Originally posted by Sirian
If Civ4 is filled end to end with multiplicative math, it is going to be unbalanced mess. I would take the fact that one trait combo has been deemed unbalanced, where the bonuses multiply each other, as a good sign.

If the game is filled with multiplicative bonuses, I say the beta testers should all be thrown out!!!

(or thrown behind bars)

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, don't get me wrong Solver, I have seen just how much Soren and the gang not only LISTEN to the fans, but also talk to us about the things which they are developing. In fact, I genuinely believe that the nerfing of espionage is BECAUSE they listened to the fans-after all, people complained LONG and LOUD about the Civ3 espionage system (and rightly so !)
However, I just feel that the 'solution' they adopted was not the best one. I believe that they were on the right track in civ3, they just implemented it poorly. I reckon that if they go back and look at the civ3 espionage system and REALLY shake it up, then it could be one of the coolest espionage systems ever! If I could give some advice to them in this regard, I would suggest that they look at 'Birth of the Federation' as an example of an espionage system which was highly effective WITHOUT requiring excessive micromanagement and costs!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Solver]

There's more than one way to do things right. Espionage can also be made very exciting with the Spy unit. Well, the Spies do now have an exciting function, at least - they can destroy tile improvements, without you being at war with that civ. Sneaky sabotage!

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Well, what about improvements within the city, can they destroy them too? It would seem odd to one but not the other! In fact, if it doesn't violate your NDA, what ARE the different functions of spies in Civ4? I am curious to know, even if they are underwhelming.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Solver]

I'm afraid the specifics of building and using spies are one of the things I can't talk about now.