Apolyton Civ4 PREVIEW (By Solver) - Part 1 online

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by conmcb25


You need to think like CIV IV not CIV III

Apparently ... but how?

[Solver]

I think I'd like to see the bombard work against the entire stack, without actually engaging though; perhaps a 20-30% chance of hitting a single HP off of each unit in the stack, affected of course by the units (more armored or more agile units have lower chance, enemy artillery or nonagile units have higher) ...

That is the kind of a thing that should never be in the game. Then all strategy is eliminated, and we come with a single recipe that will let the human win every time. You build 20 siege units and bombard any stacks with that, and beat em up with no losses.

That's exactly the same how in Civ3 all you need is 20 Cannons along with some Cavalry, then you can bombard any defenders down to 1 HP, take city, rinse, repeat, and not lose a single unit in the process!

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Apparently ... but how?

Meditation and Yoga, sit down on the floor, cross your legs, and then hum to yourself: "Sid, Sid, Sid, Sid"

Try it, it works!

[alva]

Originally posted by snoopy369


Interesting. That's a bit of an exploit, isn't it, since you can actually check (at least to some extent) what different units are in a stack, just by cycling through your offensive units? Though I guess it is just one more thing encouraging combined arms

Hmm, that does sound strange indeed, maybe we can see the defenders anyway...so there is need to "force" us to change attackers to see the defenders.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Solver

I think I'd like to see the bombard work against the entire stack, without actually engaging though; perhaps a 20-30% chance of hitting a single HP off of each unit in the stack, affected of course by the units (more armored or more agile units have lower chance, enemy artillery or nonagile units have higher) ...

That is the kind of a thing that should never be in the game. Then all strategy is eliminated, and we come with a single recipe that will let the human win every time. You build 20 siege units and bombard any stacks with that, and beat em up with no losses.

That's exactly the same how in Civ3 all you need is 20 Cannons along with some Cavalry, then you can bombard any defenders down to 1 HP, take city, rinse, repeat, and not lose a single unit in the process!

That depends on the implementation Just lower the percentage chance to a reasonable percentage. Perhaps 20% is too high ... but there's a percentage that makes it useful against stacks of certain sizes but not against too small of stacks.

Yes, 20 cannons could reduce the Defensive units to 1hp, but would 10 cavalry do the same or better, at reduced cost to the player?

The problem I had with civ3 was that cannons were useful against ANY size of stack, pretty much, even a single unit (ESPECIALLY a single unit). Arty should only be useful against large stacks of units with high unit density. That's the point of artillery (that and bombarding town fortifications, which is an excellent addition.)

[Tventano]

Originally posted by alva
Hmm, that does sound strange indeed, maybe we can see the defenders anyway...so there is need to "force" us to change attackers to see the defenders.

Just look at

http://apolyton.net/dir/index.php?id=4862&t=fullimage&toprate=5.0000&tophits=5501&cat=346

It shows the specs of the whole stack of Montezuma. Solver explains in his text that Montezuma threatens him.

Same is valid for cities, by the number of circles above the standard you see the number of units, by clicking (or hoovering?) you see the details.

[rickb]

Originally posted by Solver
Plus, attacking with siege isn't always suicide. Siege weapons have a withdrawal chance.

What's the withdrawal chance for them? Sounds like Flanking I, II will be the first unit promotions you'd want to get for seige weapons assuming they survive long enough. Do you get XP for just for assaulting city defenses or attacking barbarians?

[Solver]

Siege weapons are not eligible for Flanking promotions.

The withdrawl chance for them isn't very high. It might be 25% or 20%.

[sophist]

Originally posted by Lorizael

*nod* okay. Well, that's the sort of thing I would want to micromanage myself. Then again, it might be good to let the computer automate it in the beginning, considering that I've displayed my obvious ignorance on combat here.

This is such a simple thing that I highly doubt that you (or I or Solver or Sid) could make better decisions than the algorithm they use. It's mathematically provable which combination of attacks would lead to the highest chance of victory with the largest number of surviving attackers. Micromanaging would just yield the same result or reduce your chance of success or leave you with fewer units after your victory. I guess it's possible that you might want that in some situations, but I can't think of any.

Originally posted by snoopy369


Interesting. That's a bit of an exploit, isn't it, since you can actually check (at least to some extent) what different units are in a stack, just by cycling through your offensive units? Though I guess it is just one more thing encouraging combined arms

It's not an exploit if it's intended design. You could always see the units defending when not in a city in Civ3. Besides, this doesn't show you all of the defenders, just the ones that are best defenders relative to the individual units in your stack. It could be that's the same one or two defenders in each case, which would give you little information as to whether there are more units in the city and what they are.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

See, I don't want Siege weapons to work the way Snoopy has outlined. I simply want any artillery within an attacking/defending stack to get a 'first strike' hit-with collateral damage-prior to actual combat. This, I thought, would be in line with the range of siege weapons, but would also reflect the support role of artillery-and allow you to retain your siege weapons. Of course, once they have had their 'one shot', then the siege weapon isn't heard from again unless they are specifically attacked by an enemy unit (like cavalry vs. cannon). Can I assume though, Solver, that it works nothing like this?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Solver]

They work the way you want them to if I understand you correctly .

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

So, if I have a stack containing two artillery, and it gets attacked (or initiates an attack), those two artillery get a FREE SHOT before the real combat begins, but then only get to attack again if they are either (a) specifically targetted for attack or (b) specifically selected TO attack? If that IS the way that they can work, then I am 100% happy with siege weapons AND I think I will name my firstborn after you !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Solver]

Ahh, no no, that's not it! On the defensive, siege units get no free shots and do not act any funny ways.

However, there's this first strike system I mentioned in my preview - you can give siege units a first strike ability if you want to.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Solver
That is incorrect. You can select, say, 5 units and attack with them all, and the game will automatically choose the order of attack based on chances of winning.

Oh boy, this sounds good...Reducing tedium and endless mouseclicking.

How many units can you set up in this way for a battle?

Can you create a subgroup and lock them so you can move that subgroup with a single click? Will it hold the grouping after it is done moving?

Can you also group workers in this way, so you can issue a single build command to a group of workers, instead of having to issue the same build command to every worker on a single tile?

Will an autopathed unit hold onto its path if it is selected a few turn later, while it is in transit, or does it cancel the pathing command as in civ3?

[Solver]

How many units can you set up in this way for a battle?

Infinite. Or at least as many as you have in a stack.

Can you create a subgroup and lock them so you can move that subgroup with a single click? Will it hold the grouping after it is done moving?

Yes, yes.

Can you also group workers in this way, so you can issue a single build command to a group of workers, instead of having to issue the same build command to every worker on a single tile?

Yes!

Will an autopathed unit hold onto its path if it is selected a few turn later, while it is in transit, or does it cancel the pathing command as in civ3?

Retains the orders.