4 informative (and new I hope) screenshots

[Solver]

I think 3125 options is still a slight improvement over 7 options .

[Aro]

The grid is turned ON!
Finally!

[Martinus]

Like them a lot. Especially the Civics screen. We are going to have fun with those options.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Maniac
Am I the only one who doesn't like the civics system?

Yes.

[AeonOfTime]

The semi-transparent resource/bonuses overlays are a nice touch too... really makes placing cities a bit easier

[astrologix]

Originally posted by Solver
I think 3125 options is still a slight improvement over 7 options .

Hey, Solver, how can you say that ?

If we take one choice per civics, and assuming that one can have only two choices at a time, I count 'only' 250 possibilities without repetition.

Where am I wrong ?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by astrologix


Hey, Solver, how can you say that ?

If we take one choice per civics, and assuming that one can have only two choices at a time, I count 'only' 250 possibilities without repetition.

Where am I wrong ?

There are 5 choices in 5 categories, which translates into 5^5 choices, i.e. 3125 combinations.

Of course, not all are going to be available from day 1 and at any time some may be more viable than others, but it doesn't change the fact that you could say 3125 different choices in Civ4 whereas you had only 7 choices in Civ3 (and you could also argue there that not all are available from day 1 and that once you develop communism, monarchy becomes obsolete etc.)

(You can only have 1 choice in each category I believe - the two choices lighted up in Religion category on the screenshot signify a revolution, imo).

Also, remember that you do not get any repetitions, since each category has different choices.

[astrologix]

Martinus, If you choose the first choice in the Government category, say Despotism, you only have 20 possible choices for the second civics among the other categories. That makes 5 x 20 = 100 possibilities in total if you choose one of the 5 choices in the Government category.

Now, if you make the same with the second array, say the 'Legal' category, then you have only 75 NEW choices among the remain categories, because the Government civics has already been counted in the previous amount.

So, if you count all the possible couples of choices, from the left to the right, you have :

5x20 + 5x15 + 5x10 + 5x5 = 250 different choices.

Am I still wrong after this explanation ?

[DeathByTheSword]

yes you forget to 'reset' the group after each count. with the 5 x 20 you are only thinking about one change in the latter 4 but they can have 4 changes...it is 5^5 but i cant explain it properly in english without using dutch words..

[sabrewolf]

Re: 4 informative (and new I hope) screenshots

Originally posted by MeaCulpa
#1: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?...ization4_1.jpg

hey wow, i'm truly impressed!
the food now actually looks like toast and the coins really look like gold coins

i wonder if the hammers change of the ages?
and how to beakers look like?

#3: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?...ization4_4.jpg

those blue elephants... i've seen them several times already, but they do not look like units. is that ivory resource?

#4: http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?...ization4_6.jpg

i am still a bit irritated that water still gives you 2 trade. i usually is barely enough to feed a fisherman's village, but to generate so much gold?

what's lovely is the green border (top right) which actually bends along the river! it looks like the borders aren't simple overlays anymore, but "know" the underlying terrain

also, are the units shrinking and shrinking? they used to be huge, then just big and now soon getting too small to distiguish?!?

last, i love those "disband" and "sentry" icons

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by MarkG
they are not seen before but they are from an old build

Man, you know waaay too much. We need to speak face to face, just to convince you to leak some secret! (think about that told with a James Bond voice)

Not kidding, can you point us to already know images that are from the last build? Thank you in advance.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
yes you forget to 'reset' the group after each count. with the 5 x 20 you are only thinking about one change in the latter 4 but they can have 4 changes...it is 5^5 but i cant explain it properly in english without using dutch words..

My math is truly rusted, but aren't you thinking as if this is a number on math with a base 5, are you?
That's not the right approach, IMHO. They aren't positional numbers, but a grid.

May be I'm a bit confused...

[LordShiva]

Re: Re: 4 informative (and new I hope) screenshots

Originally posted by sabrewolf
those blue elephants... i've seen them several times already, but they do not look like units. is that ivory resource?

Yes. We've seen elephant units in other screenshots, they look totally different.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by astrologix
Am I still wrong after this explanation ?

Yes, you are. I can see what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. The problem is your logic doesn't go far enough.

At your first choice, you have 5 options. Then, for your second choice, you don't have 20 choices left, but rather there are 4 choices left of each 5 options. For the second choice, you have 5 options. For the third choice you once again have 5 options left. Let's assume for the moment there are only 3 Civic categories, the first 3 in the screenshot: Government, Legal and Labor. The number of combinations using your logic is 5x10 + 5x5 = 75. In reality it's 5x5x5 = 125. Since the number is comparatively low, we can write it out, if we number rather than name the civics (no, I didn't actually do this, I used a script, but it's easier to read then write ):

111 211 311 411 511
112 212 312 412 412
113 213 313 413 513
114 214 314 414 514
115 215 315 415 515

121 221 321 421 521
122 222 322 422 522
123 223 323 423 523
124 224 324 424 524
125 225 325 425 525

131 231 331 431 531
132 232 332 432 532
133 233 333 433 533
134 234 334 434 534
135 235 335 435 535

141 241 341 441 541
142 242 342 442 542
143 243 343 443 543
144 244 344 444 544
145 245 345 445 545

151 251 351 451 551
152 252 352 452 552
153 253 353 453 553
154 254 354 454 554
155 255 355 455 555

Every number here, from 111 to 555 represents a different civic combination. 111 represents Despotism+Barbarism+Paganism, 555 represents Police State+Free Speech+Emancipation and e.g. 214 represents Hereditary Rule+Barbarism+Caste System. As you can see there are 25x5 =125 different combinations.

What you were probably thinking was that order doesn't matter, you can pick a Labor Civic first and a Government civic second too, rather than Labor last and Government first. While true, this would only change the meaning of the codes above, not the number of them. E.g. 214 would become Slavery+Despotism+Nationhood, but there'd still be 5x5x5 combinations.

The same logic can of course be extended to 5 Civics categories, but it would take up several forum posts to print all 3125 combinations

You're confused with permutations where you choose 5 times from a single set of 25 options. But that would mean you can could choose both Despotism and Hereditary Rule at the same time. You still messed up the math though, that would've been 25x24x23x22x21 = 25!-20! = 6,375,600 combinations!

That said, there are of course not really 3125 choices from a player's point of view, or even 250. If we apply the same logic to wonders and buildings and we assume that there are 102 of these in the game (I read that in a preview somewhere several months ago, it's probably no longer accurate but let's assume that it is for a moment) and we know that a city can either have a building/wonder or not have it, that would mean that there are 2^102 = 5,070,602,400,912,917,605,986,812,821,504 different city configurations Who the hell ever thinks that way? We think in terms of 102 buildings, not in terms of over 5 nonillion combinations (that's what you call 5 with 30 zeros), so following the same logic there are 25 Civics, not 3125 combinations.

[astrologix]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
yes you forget to 'reset' the group after each count. with the 5 x 20 you are only thinking about one change in the latter 4 but they can have 4 changes...it is 5^5 but i cant explain it properly in english without using dutch words..

I'm affraid you're not right, DeathByTheSword.

IIRC you can only choose at once 2 civic options, for exemple Representation & Burocracy,

but not Representation & Burocracy & SErfdom & Mercantilism & Paganism at the same time.

EDIT : ok, ok, see my next post