Borders and Diplomacy

[AoA]

Sorry if this has been covered before but.....

How about an ability to use diplomacy to set borders in the game. In Civ3 and SMAC, borders were decided by whichever civ could claim it by distance or influence. Though, this has led to one-city civ's keeping a 5-tile radius due to culture just because I never got around to crushing them early. That leaves me needing to declare war for one specific tile that I might want.

Shouldn't I be able to bargain or deal for it? Maybe trade some of my tiles for some of the AI's. The US and Canada's border is nice and straight through diplomacy. And that would help prevent other countires controlling one tile on my continent across a stretch of water. And if a deal can't be made, you could always go to war.

I should be able to claim as much land as I want and if no one contests me then I deserve it. Maybe the AI will be more willing to trade for a couple of tiles, since it never wants to give up a city.

[H Tower]

I'm hoping for more diplomacy features and being able to divy up land between civs. The Berlin Conference that divided up Africa comes to mind.

[M. le Comte]

Very good idea.

As I said in an other thread, it matches reality: borders aren't defined by culture, but through diplomacy and international treaties.

[Cort Haus]

Nice idea for the Civ 5 wishlist, but sounds difficult to implement in interface terms.

Also, divying up land is hard enough playing against humans. Getting the AI to rationalise a deal would be tough, I expect.

[AoA]

I think it might be easier to get the AI to accept a deal for a few tiles. It must be easier than getting them to accept a deal for a whole city, which is hard to do even when you're rampaging through their empire.

We should be able to claim nearly any land we want in the game for our borders. If we claim it, then the AI can't build there unless they make a deal with us. Then we either relent our claim to the land or if it's important enough then we go to war over it. And the deal can be AI:"I see you claimed this land. Well nertz to you. It's ours now." You:"Ha, you got me" or "You'll take this land when you can pry it from my cold dead hand"

The US bought the Lousiana Territory from the French and the vast majority of it was really undefended land. If Spain/Mexico decided they wanted to build a city in Oklahoma, would we have stopped them. That's diplomacy.

Just think no more building a crap 3-tile city just to close a gap on your continent so the AI can't drop a city there. The US bought the Gadsen Purchase from Mexico just to run the train through. Hitler claimed Czechoslavakia and no one did anything about it, but they did when it came around to Poland. I can't imagine there are enough cities in Siberia to completely cover Asia so Russia doesn't have any gaps. And for once we can claim the Tundra and Desert land without wasting good settlers.

Maybe not a great solution, but it does fit what happens in real life. SMAC's diplomacy and RON's diplomacy were more realistic compared to Civ3's. Put the computing power to this and screw the animated leaders. I'd even take this over Wonder Movies.

Insane rant over.....BTW Firaxis, you better not take any the Wonder movies.

[Drakan]

Originally posted by M. le Comte
Very good idea.

As I said in an other thread, it matches reality: borders aren't defined by culture, but through diplomacy and international treaties.

So very true. Just think of Africa and it's colonisation.

Yeah the idea is fine AoA but then what do you think an AI would ask in exchange for that alaska-tundra tile that, lo and behold, has oil (I hope Bush doesn't read this ).

The AI would be programmed to either refuse trading it or else, give in the city (if underpowered to you) or else ask for crazy over-the-top demands.

Just think how much gpt asks from you the AI when you already have hooked up 7 luxuries already.

Oil= ships, bombers, tanks (shiver), helicopters (in C4 that is).

Good idea, but just how much are you willing to pay for that tile.

True, SMAC'S diplomatic model was light years ahead of CivIII.

[PapaMonkey]

This would be a great addition. Perhaps in early game, in unclaimed territory, you claim the squares any of your exploring units enter. You have the same (or similar) line of sight, but the squares you enter are claimed (picture your unit posting his flag. This would slow down initial exploration as you would have to enter more territory early in the game. It would also only be effective if the territory was yet unclaimed.

This would certainly add a lot of strategic options to the diplomacy later as tiles were traded and exchanged. Another example of this is Israel and the disputed lands there. A possible outcome would be that a country might cede a tile to you that you could build an airbase on, or a fort (Philippines to the US). This would be very interesting!

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by PapaMonkey
This would be a great addition. Perhaps in early game, in unclaimed territory, you claim the squares any of your exploring units enter. You have the same (or similar) line of sight, but the squares you enter are claimed (picture your unit posting his flag. This would slow down initial exploration as you would have to enter more territory early in the game. It would also only be effective if the territory was yet unclaimed.

I don't know about all this. Good idea for a scenario or a mod, maybe. Territory claiming didn't happen very often at all except for a few hundred years in the age of exploration.

[H Tower]

and then after that, all of it was claimed, so people couldn't very well make new claims then, could they?

[LordShiva]

Well I think Civ has a perfectly playable and not-too-unrealistic territory-claiming model - building cities.

[Kataphraktoi]

which lets you build cities anywhere, even in between their cities if they dont spam them. there are certain areas where you simply cant build without going to war. smac has it right with a auto 7-tile border. although that could way use a treaty-for-turf option

[LordShiva]

I believe the new health system is supposed to solve many of these problems.

Territory trading, even if it is historically significant enough for the programmers to try and implement (I think it's debatable), would be a PITA to implement. Things like cultural expansion, both of the traders' cities and of third-party cities, conquest by third-parties, etc., would make things a real mess.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by PapaMonkey
This would be a great addition. Perhaps in early game, in unclaimed territory, you claim the squares any of your exploring units enter. You have the same (or similar) line of sight, but the squares you enter are claimed (picture your unit posting his flag. This would slow down initial exploration as you would have to enter more territory early in the game. It would also only be effective if the territory was yet unclaimed.

The other problem with explorers prancing around all over the place claiming territory would certainly be explorer-spam, and the resulting criss-crossed multi-coloured patches of totally empty yet claimed territory that can really screw with, among other things, troop movement plans (especially since borders can now be closed).

[Kataphraktoi]

options to ignore territory claims.your base can even be smack dab in enemy territory.so what? they go to war,or ignore you. if they choose not to fight,the whole area,say 5 tiles goes to you as your turf.

or you and someone else can just agree to totaly ignore someone eles turf,and actually remove it from the viewscreen (your view)

[AoA]

I don't think claimed territory should be officially part of your empire and so other civ's can certainly walk right through it. This should represent the empty wilderness and it is pretty much up for grabs. Sure the Age of Exploration and continental claims was brief, but it would be interesting to see how the diplomacy could change the game.
I don't think you would have to walk through every tile to claim it and maybe it should be line of sight. Maybe it would be better to actually have to claim the land by clicking the speicifc land you want.
There must be some way to limit it from becoming an explorer free-for all....make it be a max percentage of your settled land or make it have to be within 20 or 50 tiles from a city.
Any settled city automatically trumps claimed land and that would remove any more distant claims.

Drakan: they might ask a lot for the tundra. But if I claimed it first, would they be willing to go to war to put a city there. And what would I be willing to pay for the land if they have it knowing it might be a dud. In Civ3, I'd have to go to war to get the land. A peaceful option would be nice.