Wonders that aren't wonderful?

[Dis]

Originally posted by molly bloom



The way that Stonehenge and the Pyramids haven't ? Or the Taj Mahal or Hindu temples in India ?

Their 'initial' or 'primary' importance for the time they were built in is replaced in many cases by an association with say, a renewed sense of nationalism, or income generation from tourism.

So that even today although Egypt is a mainly Muslim country, it still promotes its Egyptian pre-Islamic history with the Pyramids, and Iran does the same thing with its pre-Islamic golden age buildings from the Achaemenid and Sassanid dynasties.

Pyramids are the only wonder that Egypt has. It's their only touritst attraction. That's why it's still popular.

oh and the fact no one knows for sure how they were built with existing technology at the time.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Dis


Pyramids are the only wonder that Egypt has. It's their only touritst attraction. That's why it's still popular.

oh and the fact no one knows for sure how they were built with existing technology at the time.

Errr.... try Luxor, Abu Simbel, al Azhar, Fatimid, Ayyubid and Mameluke monuments, the Sphinx, the tomb of Hatshepsut, the Valley of the Kings....

[Dis]

those aren't civ3 wonders

but on second thought, maybe I should visit Egypt.

[Provost Harrison]

I wonder what the status of some of the wonders like The Colossus or The Hanging Gardens would have been had they survived. I don't think they would have faded away like that. More silly ideas...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dis
oh and the fact no one knows for sure how they were built with existing technology at the time.

Not true. There's no great "wonder" at how the pyramids were built with "existing technology," as nothing about their construction defies what we know of their available building techniques. There's certainly nothing mystical about it.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dis
It's a great idea. How impressed can your people really be when you have so many great wonders? Some of the older ones should lose importance.

Yeah, when I look at Mt. Hood, I just can't get a sense of awe because I know Mt. Rainier is also out there, or Mt. McKinley...

I can't think of any logical reason for "wonder fatigue" in a civilization. If anything, the sheer abundance of wonders would be a source for incredible nationalist pride. But wonders are impressive on their own merits, and it's silly to think the power of one would be diminished by the existence of others.

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Not true. There's no great "wonder" at how the pyramids were built with "existing technology," as nothing about their construction defies what we know of their available building techniques. There's certainly nothing mystical about it.

He didn't say that it couldn't be done with existing technology. He only said that we don't know specifics about the process, which is true. There are a lot of gaps in what we know about them


I think wonders that lose importance is getting unnecessarily complex. I believe Civ should be as realistic as possible, but only to the point where it allows for fun gameplay. Civ is a game of abstractions. Excessive micromanagement is not much fun for your average player... I don't think such a small thing is worth the effort

[Daddy-O]

The US Space Shuttle was a wonder in its day. It is not the Shuttle that has failed mankind. It is the bureaucracy in Washington and NASA that has failed us - circling the earth for almost 25 years. We should be on the third version of a reusable vehicle by now and standing on Mars. The shuttle cannot be blamed for the fizzle that the US Space program has become.

Now that Russian Shuttle was a fizzle.

In game, I think that having another civ beat you to a wonder and loosing all that time and money is a big enough fizzle.

See Russian Shuttle.

And yes civilizations do know that the are building a wonder of the world when they build it. Those who built the pyramids saw it. Those who built great bridges and dams and sky scrapers knew these to be wonders. The Apollo mission, the A-Bomb, the future cure for cancer are all wonders that have or will change the world and yes those who have worked on them knew it. So, in a game that spans thousands of years, it is fair to assume that when your civ completes a wonder it will work.

As far as the wonder expiring, or the effects changing. I think Civ has handled that in the past. I am sure that Civ4 will have a fair way to deal with this.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sabre2th
He didn't say that it couldn't be done with existing technology.

That's certainly his implication. Why else say "with existing technology at the time," unless he's asserting that there is some bafflement at the Egyptians being able to build them with their known technology?

The Pyramids are huge and grand, but not miraculous. If the accounts of the Hanging Gardens are to be believed, they required far more engineering meddle to create than Cheops did.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


That's certainly his implication. Why else say "with existing technology at the time," unless he's asserting that there is some bafflement at the Egyptians being able to build them with their known technology?

The Pyramids are huge and grand, but not miraculous. If the accounts of the Hanging Gardens are to be believed, they required far more engineering meddle to create than Cheops did.

perhaps I did not use the right combination of words. I was referring to what saber2th was saying.

I'm not one of these fanatics who believe space aliens constructed them. I'm sure lots and lots of slaves were used (and died), but exactly how did they get such large stone bricks up there? Or even accross large expanses of desert. I watched a program that suggested they rolled them on logs.

[Boris Godunov]

http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

The only question I can see that isn't fully answered is how much were the stones simply hauled up earthen ramps vs. being placed by lever machines (which this highly skeptical author acknowledges were quite possible). That's a pretty inconsequential detail, as far as I'm concerned.

Of, course the major answer to "how" is that, when you have hundreds of thousands of laborers at your disposal and plenty of free time, enormous feats aren't so difficult.

[Dis]

you think the pyramids weren't that difficult?

Sure you have the manpower, but it's not easy to coordinate that manpower. Especially when they are slave labour. it's not like they take pride in their work. It's not like in the U.S. where you have union guys who each have a certain task to do. And they do that task well (I'm serious here- union guys at least in my city are hard workers- when it comes to their actual job- they will never do anyone else's job)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by skrobism

And yes civilizations do know that the are building a wonder of the world when they build it. Those who built the pyramids saw it.

Unlikely for earlier civilizations, since the list of wonders of the ancient world was a list formulated over time by Herodotus and Antipater of Sidon, Callimachus of Cyrene amongst others- which is why it has a Mediterranean, Middle Eastern Graeco-Roman feel to it- no Persian/Achaemenid wonders, no Stonehenge, nothing from India or China.

The list was revised in Mediaeval times, when it hardened to being the Seven Wonders of the Pharos of Alexandria, the Pyramids, the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, the statue of Zeus, the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and the Colossus of Rhodes.

Khufu's pyramids had been preceded by earlier pyramids too.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dis
you think the pyramids weren't that difficult?

In terms of design and construction know-how, not at all.

Sure you have the manpower, but it's not easy to coordinate that manpower. Especially when they are slave labour.

Well, that's a very debatable issue right there. There is a lot of evidence that it wasn't predominantly slave labor at all, but rather, the Egyptian citizens being corralled into public works during the flood season (since they had nothing else to do, as the fields were flooded).

[Darkstar]

Boris, the pyramids would be a challenge even for us to build, using our practised construction technology. So stop trying to talk down the pyramids.

Of course, they were mostly make busy work for the workers... who were not slave labour. At least, to the best of our current knowledge.