Three months is a long time to scratch the civ itch - apply for a copy of CtP2 & AoM

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Dis
I couldn't get into CTP2. I tried (twice)

I'm curious...Why???

[Dis]

Originally posted by hexagonian

I'm curious...Why???

I can't explain exactly. The game seems so cool when reading the instruction manual. But the gameplay just doesn't grip me for some reason.

[Nikolai]

DrKazanovaKK, I'm tired of your personal attacks now. Please stop!

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by DrKazanovaKK
One thing always amused me about Civ3 was the concept that some learned person sitting in a hut would think that if he found a large, not too wild animal, he might ride it, then when he finished this thought, the animal would appear outside somewhere. Or think, if I had a metal, I might be able to heat it up and make something.

Absolutely,
especially amusing thing if you discover Iron Working or Horse Riding,
although there are no Horses or Iron nearby and,
even several hundred years after discovery,
you are not able to get a grip on said Resources

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by stankarp
Proteus_MST

AOM has been available for download here for several months.

http://apolyton.net/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=134392&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

However, if you wait till Tuesday, you can download it with the diplomacy update.

Great
then I´ll wait till morrow

[Sarxis]

Thanx for the offer hexagonian, but I was away this past week hiking in northern Michigan.

I went ahead and bought stankarp's last N. American copy before I left. Looking forward to playing it soon.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Dis
I can't explain exactly. The game seems so cool when reading the instruction manual. But the gameplay just doesn't grip me for some reason.

Well, I can understand the weak AI in vanilla turning off players - and it may be that your impressions of the game are tied into that aspect a little more than you may realize. But I think I can say that we've resolved that issue...

The basic concepts are the same - build up an empire in a TBS format. In my mind, the greatest differences are how some of the gameplay concepts are handled.

PW vs workers. In CTP2, you have a more streamlined system with the PW system - and even the basic concepts of how the tiles are worked are different in the 2 games - (single tile/single worker of civ3 vs a cumulative ring tile format of CTP2). I'd admit that I do like the single tile format of civ3 over the ring tile of CTP2, but it is definitely not a gamebreaker for me.

Stacked combat. Again, a more streamlined approach in CTP2, with the use of stacked combat vs single-unit combat.

The end result is the same in both games in these gameplay elements though. Both systems allow a player to exploit tiles though the creation of improvements, and these improvents require the player to expend resources to do so - and the more resources he expends, the greater his return.

With combat, both games do require a player to generate a mix of unit types (offense, defense, ranged). Both games allow for artillery useage in a bombard capability.

Ultimately, the main difference in the games is the amount of micromanagement that you have to do in all periods of the game - and whether you consider that micromangement as tedium or not.

I would probably be playing more civ3 if the game had a setup that would allow for the effective management of these two areas. A simple feature to create locked substacks of workers and military units, and the ability to issue build commands to multiple workers or combat orders to multiple units with one click of the mouse would help a great deal, but it is not in place at the level it should be. civ3 bogs down for me once the map is flooded with units, and there is no effective means to manage those units - at least not nearly as effective as in CTP2/AOM.

The one area that I do feel civ3 is better than CTP2 is in the atmosphere created through diplomacy (emphasis on atmosphere). I do not particularly care about the structure of civ3's diplomacy setup that creates the need to tech-whore, and I do not care for the trade imbalances either, but I can accept them as gameplay elements. Yet I feel that the overall atmosphere of the civ3 diplomacy system is a little more refined than in CTP2.

To AOM's credit, Stan is working on diplomacy though, and has just posted an update for it.

I'd still challenge you to at least take a look at the readme for AOM, and since you have CTP2, to consider playing some AOM. Different is not necessarily bad. I've been able to get enjoyment out of both civ3 and CTP2/AOM because I can accept those differences. (To be honest - I've probably played as much civ3 as CTP2/AOM over the past year.) Sure, I may have a favorite, but it does not mean that the alternative is bad either.

Break out of your civ3 comfort zone...

[Dis]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


Absolutely,
especially amusing thing if you discover Iron Working or Horse Riding,
although there are no Horses or Iron nearby and,
even several hundred years after discovery,
you are not able to get a grip on said Resources

sometimes gameplay takes precedence over reality.

anyways those things have always existed. It's just you don't know what to use them for until you figure out the technology for it. So it makes sense not to see it (as it would give an advantage to the human player who already knows what they are).

[stankarp]

So it makes sense not to see it (as it would give an advantage to the human player who already knows what they are).

by Dis.

Firstly, its a balance thing. Civ 3 and AOM give the AI players extra starting advances and research bonuses.

Both give the Human 2 ways to get extra advances, trade and espionage.

However, AOM is bigger and more intensive and military technology is more important. So I put in the ability to use a resource to get an advance (for a heavy cost) and the ability to capture an advance from another civ.

IN AOM, the fact you have an Iron deposit does not mean you can race off and get iron working. You can get only one advance per good most of the time, so to get to iron working you have to expend up to 6 nomads on 6 different copper/iron goods (plus gold and PW), then still research at least 3 advances not available from a good.

The net effect is that if you have several of a key resource, your technology in that area can be advanced in that way, which is more realistic. If you have access to 3 horses and camels you can have the best cavalry for a while.

[angrybowen]

DrKazanovaKK, I'm tired of your personal attacks now

by Nikolai

I don't think it was much a personal attack Nikolai as surprise at the apparent lack of VIKING spirit.

Pound for pound the Vikings probably had more influence on the world in their time and subsequently than probably any other ethnic group.

[Jaybe]

... expend up to 6 nomads on 6 different copper/iron goods ...

BTW (for those who have not played AOM), those nomads are NOT cheap at 750 production. More comparable to the settler cost in Rhye's of Civ mod for C3C, though nomads only take 1 pop point.

[smithldoo]

I have played Civ extensively, but ended up going back to CTP2 happiley for Cradle and now AOM.

Have just about completed a grand campaign with the diplomacy update.

AOM has a different feel about it, especially once you get over your aggression level and the Ai begin to look at you like a hitler. The first 120 turns are fun and tense and a little unpredictable. Then you get established and can do an Alexander or Caesar and conquer someone and get them to surrender rather than fight to the last warrior or turn into rubble. An early surrender can be a huge boost as it was for those 2 great gentlemen.

Then consolidate for the Dark Ages, then move on into your specific government for the medieval period that, with city defences, give that period its own flavour. After defeating the AI armies, you have to conduct sieges to get into the cities.

Then instead of a boring, guaranteed victory as you grind everything to dust, you have to plan your way to the target of 2500 points, balancing your government restrictions, corruption, un cooperative AI, and still a few barbarians. I am keeping an eye "on the clock" as the mongols and the black death start in 30 turns and I want to try to win by then.

AOM has a couple of minor bugs (probably left over from CTP2) but they do not affect gameplay. Overall, it is a reall challenge and new feel. Most people who build a few cities and move a few units find out the AI sort them out fairly quickly. You have to have a plan, resources and geography are very important. Supply means war costs a lot to wage (repairing units takes reources).

AOM takes you out of the civ3 comfort zone and puts you in the real world of civilization building IMHO. You can loose a game of AOM with indecisive play (and I have). You are under at least a little pressure ALL the time. Yin said it was a game you cannot afford to cruise for even 10-15 turns in. Hex is right, that is a great compliment.

to the AOM team.

[Proteus_MST]

I downloaded AoM,
put it into a separate Folder and tried to start it.
At the beginning everything works nice,
until I want to start a new game.
After I have adjusted all the settings I want and click "Launch", it says that no CtP2 - CD is within my CD-ROM (which of course is incorrect)

I assume that it might have something to do with my CD being the german version of CtP2, but with another english mod, i.e. "Call to Conquest" (also in Combination with the Modswapper) it works just fine.
So I dunno, maybe you have some Ideas how to get it to work with the german CD, hexagonian (for example replacing the file that checks for the CD with its german version [I don´t know which file it is else I would have done it already]).

(oh and yes, after encountering the problems I uninstalled CtP2, reinstalled it again and also applied the patch that came with the zip, but it didn´t help)

[stankarp]

I assume that it might have something to do with my CD being the german version of CtP2

Unfortunately yes AFAIK. One person with the French version managed to get it to work but never explained fully how he got it to work.

[hexagonian]

Skrobism has emailed me the info, and his AOM/CTP2 disk will go out today.

I may have access to another CTP2 disk, and will send it for cash. I will have to confirm this though...

Any takers???