PETITION: Delay Civ 4 Until Easter...Please Sign!

[yin26]

Hey, I'm only down on the starry-eyed posters who decide to attack me for posting an opposing view. And being critical of what we know so far of the game isn't trolling. You might not like it, I understand, but I've heard and seen nothing that compells me Civ 4 will be much more than Civ 2.7 -- not including good modding and MP from the ground up, which could save the game.

To some extent, the failure with Civ 3 did teach Firaxis a lot, so it seems, but I'm not going to wish Civ 4 ill. Fact is, I hope Firaxis hits a homerun with Civ 4, I just see too many signs that this is just a safe design, though.

And if that disappoints me, I'll post about it if I like. Too bad for those who find this annoying.

[yin26]

Aro: By the way, you crack me up!

I'm going to try to adopt more of your positive energy. It's catchy.

[Dale]

Yin,

It's not so much that you have an opposing view, or the fact you're posting your opinion on reported game concepts. Hell, when it comes down to it I'm in the same view as you (see my comments a few years ago about CTP2 vs Civ3).

It's more the fact that you state crap that shows you obviously haven't kept up to date. It's your comments about Civ3 based on its vanilla state without acknowledging the advancement Conquests made on the game (it was actually playable, but by no means anywhere near a good game in my view). It's also the way you state your views on Civ4. You come across as the spoilt little brat stomping his feet in the supermarket shouting "I WANT a Bertie Beetle!".

These points are why I have no respect for you, and why I'll always attack your POV (even though it is in the general same line as mine).

Dale

Also, just a tip here, you're at a "Civ" site. The way you constantly bash down the core concepts of Civ doesn't sit well with the "starry-eyed posters" as you put it.

[yin26]

What crap? That the graphics look horrible to me? That this is a carefully measured .2 step forward to civ 2.7? The fact that a Firaxis game "was actually playable" after a ton of work past the vanilla release redeems nothing, in my view.

Finally, I'm not here to be a cuddly friend to the masses. Take me or leave me. I honestly feel we have Civ 2.7 coming, and if I feel like posting that here, on a Civ site, I will.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by yin26
Those are some good points, I grant you. Still, do you think that Civ 4 will be much more than a very polished warmed-over game?

Well, Civ4 will be a sequel. They are using the formula "1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new" to make it. So, it is clear that 2/3 of the game will feel "warmed-over" to you. But I think that's because you don't want a sequel.

Many posters here want more of the same. They want to feel again what they first felt with Civ2 / SMAC / Civ3. And radical differences would make them turn their back on the game.

I don't think that it would be bad if the game is "warmed over". To a large extent, Civ2 was a warm-over of Civ1. To a large extent, SMAC was a warm-over of Civ2. To a large extent Civ3 was a warm-over of Civ2 with some of the ideas coming from SMAC. None of these games differ from Civ1 nearly as much as the CtP series (and I'm not even speaking of Rise of nations or Europa Universalis, which are two empire-building games with a focus completely different from the Civ series)

If Civ4 can provide us with a better AI, a better interface, better multiplayer opportunities, a better moddability, a better balance etc. than Civ3/SMAC, then I'm all for it. If Civ4 also brings in some new features, while being recognizable, it's even better.

Civ4 looks like it is going to take the best of SMAC and the best of Civ3 (social engineering + borders + culture + trade) and even add religion to the mix. It will also remove some things that have proven tedious (polluted squares, revolting cities).
As a result, Civ4 should play in a largely different fashion than Civ2, while still having the same basic premise: build a urban civilization, with settlers, wonders, military units, and several ways to achieve victory.

If Firaxis delivers, that would be because they have spent much time learning from their past mistakes, thinking about design, and actually implementing their ideas. If they manage to do it, they'll manage to create a great sequel. But indeed, it won't be nearly as creative as an original project stemming from Sid's mind. That's because such creativity is not what is asked from a sequel.

Just remember how many people complained at the beginning of Civ3 that so and so were different in Civ2

As an aside, i'd love it if Sid created a new concept for an empire-building game, different from Civ. But I think he has moved on, as his latest projects were completely different.

[yin26]

Spiffor: Bravo on a very sensible post. Believe it or not, I'm eager to see what comes of Civ 4, and I do hope it will impress. By the way, I give SMAC a little more credit for orginality than warming-over Civ, but we needn't argue about that here.

[Zoid]

Yin, you didn´t answer the question in my earlier post (#69)

[Imran Siddiqui]

Overall, though, I felt it had some really bold elements, and even if some of them weren't all that great in the end, it was at least a great effort.

So then why poo-poo Civ4's new elements? I think you probably liked SMAC's social engineering, so isn't it good that Civ included that? What about the ability to rush up a certain tech path without bothering with others? Religion seems to be a very intersting part of the game, as well as health. The new combat model?

Every sequal, even SMAC is an evolution, not a revolution, but it seems you won't be happy unless it comes close to revolutionary.

[yin26]

Dr Zoidberg: Sorry about that! Truth be told, I lack any kind of programming experience (well, I can manipulate scripts like other people), and despite apperances here at times, I'm a fairly modest person who wouldn't start on something that huge with so little practical skill.

That said, I've bantered around with some of the folks doing neat things, and I have been asked here and there to review side projects. Here, too, I've often found life a bit overwhelming and couldn't make the time.

I am, however, about to do some in-depth reviews of the Age of Man mod, again by invitation. I'm quite flattered at the opportunity, frankly. And if I end up getting Civ 4, I will work very hard to give my style of review. To see what I'm talking about, look here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...review+machine

I think that way of reviewing a game is unique (?) and respects individual differences between gamers. It's quite hard overall to do that kind of review, but I wish more places did it that way.

This is a long way of saying that while I've never embarked on making a game, I hope that my reviews are of better than average use to people. And expanding on that, I do enjoy giving feedback to games in progress.

[yin26]

Imran: I suppose that's close to true. However, I am becoming increasingly convinced that the modding ability and MP from the ground up could make room for a good Civ game. I'm also buying in to the argument that Firaxis learned a lesson or two from the Civ 3 vanilla debacle.

So I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by yin26
I'm also buying in to the argument that Firaxis learned a lesson or two from the Civ 3 vanilla debacle.

So I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

Yin baby,

I realized this when you first posted the poll.

You seemed to have gone from an all out pessimistic, "hell is at hand" attack to a very, very semi-optimistic outlook if only they were given enough time.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by yin26
Dr Zoidberg: Sorry about that! Truth be told, I lack any kind of programming experience (well, I can manipulate scripts like other people), and despite apperances here at times, I'm a fairly modest person who wouldn't start on something that huge with so little practical skill.

But you have the ideas. That´s equally important. You can easily find someone wo´ll do the coding for you. You´ll be the brains/marketing and someone else does the actual work.

I am, however, about to do some in-depth reviews of the Age of Man mod, again by invitation. I'm quite flattered at the opportunity, frankly. And if I end up getting Civ 4, I will work very hard to give my style of review. To see what I'm talking about, look here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...review+machine

I think that way of reviewing a game is unique (?) and respects individual differences between gamers. It's quite hard overall to do that kind of review, but I wish more places did it that way.

That is a most innovative way of reviewing I must say.

[Aro]

Originally posted by yin26
Aro: By the way, you crack me up!

I'm going to try to adopt more of your positive energy. It's catchy.

Well, thanks...

I'm not really so optimistic, and I don't have so much of that "positive energy"
I have a band called "Os Optimistas" (that means "The Optimistics", of course . It's a kind of joke, but for some of my bandmates isn't). Although, I am a pessimistic person in RL... Being a journalist and a political cartoonist, I'm used to the worst that the human kind produces: politicians (just kidding Arnelos!). So, when I am at Poly, I became the most optimistic person in the entire world.
It's like a therapy!

Btw, a game like that needs Yin... and Yang.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by yin26
Imran: I suppose that's close to true. However, I am becoming increasingly convinced that the modding ability and MP from the ground up could make room for a good Civ game. I'm also buying in to the argument that Firaxis learned a lesson or two from the Civ 3 vanilla debacle.

So I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

Oh, bollocks . Remember, I've known you since pre-Civ3. You'll make some concillatory statements during production and then its Defcon 5 right before release or soon after. And you'll yo-yo between Defcon levels all the way until release.

[yin26]

vee4473: Indeed, the poll is clearly tongue and cheek, and I'm glad at least one person got it!

Dr Zoidberg: Do you know any desperate coders? Oh, and I'm glad you think the review system is innovative!

Aro: Needless to say, Yin is the dark part of the circle. Notice my link in my signature to explain it all...cool name for a band, by the way.

Imran: Nah. I'm getting too old anymore. My plan actually is to drop from the boards for a while, let the optimists take back over. I've said my peace.