Russian Leader

[Nikolai]

Stalin, ´cause he was in Civ1(those were the days... ), which i think is a major argument, and because is is militaristic, as opposed to Peter the Great, which with his builder and cultured personality would make a great second leader.

[Solver]

Stalin's not going to happen anyway .

[Nikolai]

Why not? He was in Civ1, and it seems Firaxis is going back to the roots in several fields for Civ4.

[Solver]

I posted a lengthy explanation in another thread and am too lazy to go for it now, but short answer is that Civ1 was unavailable on the Soviet and Eastern market, while Civ4 is, and there are tons of people in ex-USSR and ex-Soviet block who would be offended by Stalin for numerous reasons.

[Nikolai]

....and? If all possible offensive parts of a game was removed, any game would have to be cancelled. Besides, Stalin is pretty well liked among at least parts of the population over there according to a couple of articles I´ve read, and his popularity is on the rise too. But anyhow, I don´t see this as a very good argument.

[Solver]

It is a good argument. There are different offenses. There are indeed many people who don't want to play a game with Stalin or Hitler in it, believe me. Besides, Civ doesn't really have lots of offensive elements. The most offensive stuff it has are abstract concepts such as slavery. However, Stalin is a real person and many people around here have lost family members thanks to him. Consider whether you'd want Stalin in Civ4 if Stalin had ordered your grandparents shot.

[binTravkin]

Well I suppose the same discussion could erupt over numerous leaders - Spanish wouldn't like Napoleon too much, some yugoslavian nations could dislike Suleiman The Great and so on.

Of course Stalin is one of the brightest examples, but still, he was a well-known and bright leader who left quite an impact on history..

[Solver]

There is a huge difference. How many people are there now who lost immediate family members to Napoleon? None. Napoleon was 200 years ago. Stalin died 50 years ago. You live in Latvia after all so should know no worse than me how many people are here who suffered direct losses from Stalin. And the same is true for Russia, Poland or Czech Republic, only in much bigger numbers.

[binTravkin]

Now you see how people gain popularity by time..

his popularity is on the rise

[Solver]

Sure, what we need is more nacbols right now...

I liked one point made on CFC about Hitler. A poster said that in the eyes of nutter Nazi supporters, having Hitler in the game will further serve to validate his actions and make him a hero figure.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Solver
I liked one point made on CFC about Hitler. A poster said that in the eyes of nutter Nazi supporters, having Hitler in the game will further serve to validate his actions and make him a hero figure.

that's imho a pretty weak argument.
those idiots already believe their hero's actions were valid, so this wouldn't change that.

and for people being offended: we see where that argument leads to in many western worlds: everything gets censored (just for an example: going that far that even teri hatcher's nipple visible through her blouse have to be retouched away because some retarded fanatics feel offended by seeing them)...

civilization leaders is about "great" leaders. but great leaders does not at all imply "good" leaders. in fact, most of the great historical leaders were brutal, evil, bloodthirsty and powerhungry people... with ghengis khan probably the worst of them all but also other warmongers (mao, caesar, napoleon, alexander, etc, etc, etc.)

imho a game that claims to simulate the real world should also do so without having to care about some people's views.

that being said, i still think bismarck is a worthy german leader

[Solver]

And Civ however remains a game. As such, it needs to give people fun. And people have more fun if they're not being offended. Plus, Hitler or Stalin would hurt sales.

I ask you to really imagine this on a personal level. If the game was to depict a leader who ordered your grandparents (or parents if you're 40+) shot, would you want that leader to be in the game?

[Zoid]

Peter I and Lenin. Both being builder/thinkers. Both making massive (mostly positive) changes to Russia.

[Xorbon]

Lenin, because he was the first of the Soviet leaders.

And Catherine, because the game needs more chicks as leaders.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Xorbon
Lenin, because he was the first of the Soviet leaders.

And Catherine, because the game needs more chicks as leaders.

Lenin was prettier.