Saladin? bad idea

[GeoModder]

Yeah, time to bomb Skopje.

[sophist]

Another reason for it not to be Abu Bakr is because Shi'ite Muslims believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was Muhammed's cousin and son-in-law, was the rightful leader of the Muslim community after the death of Muhammed.

[Kaak]

I always heard that alexander was macedonian too...i guess we need a poll in the off topic

[sophist]

Originally posted by Kaak
I always heard that alexander was macedonian too...

Alexander was born Macedonian. Nobody disputes that. The issue is whether it's legitimate for him to be leader of the Greeks in the game.

[Odin]

I thought the ancient Macedoniams were Dorian Greeks that remained semi-barbarious, as opposed the the Dorians that eventually intermingled with the Ionian Greeks farther south?


Anyway, about Saladin, he would be a good leader. Arab civilization was not just Arab culture after all.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The issue is whether it's legitimate for him to be leader of the Greeks in the game.

No, not really. It's a looong debate, which Markos always loses, about whether Alexander is really Greek or Macedonian. Odin is correct that the Macedonians were Dorians that were considered to be semi-barbarous.

--

Anyway, there probably are better leaders, but Saladin is the best known and would be known by the people playing the game.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Solver
Markos loves the subject of Greece and Macedonia .

Any chance of Macedonia joining Greece?

[GeoModder]

Not in a lifetime!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The issue is whether it's legitimate for him to be leader of the Greeks in the game.

No, not really. It's a looong debate, which Markos always loses, about whether Alexander is really Greek or Macedonian. Odin is correct that the Macedonians were Dorians that were considered to be semi-barbarous.

I think it was Norman Davies who put it best in his book on Europe- 'Europe: A History'

http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/SCA/reviews/europereview.htm

wherein he says that Macedonia was as Greek as Prussia was German. And given that Electors of Brandenburg-Prussia were still trying to get Germans (that is, people actually born to German parents in German territories on or near the Rhine) to 'emigrate' to Prussia in the 17th Century I think we can tell where he's coming from.

It makes as much sense to say Alexander was Greek as to say Mohammed Ali Jinnah or Mohandas Gandhi were English or British- because they'd had British educations, British teachers, lived in Great Britain, imbibed British culture, et cetera.

Why would Greek rulers so sure of their Hellenic identity strive so hard to prove their descent from Greeks, and invite Aristotle and Euripides to live and teach in their country ?


Smells like Victoria and Albert wearing Highland dress to prove their Britishness, or Kleopatra identifying herself with Egyptian Isis.

[Illuminatiscott]

Alexander was "great" in no way except miltarily. Pericles, by all means, is a much better representative of a "great" greek leader. (in case you don't know, pericles more or less invented western culture)

[GeoModder]

Wasn't his 'invented' culture defeated by an enemy city-state?

[joncnunn]

More on the original topic, the arabs themselves thru most of the history of the muslum empires cared about how similar someones culture was too their own (particularly weater they were fellow followers of Islam) and not their nationality.

It was only in the early 20th century when the "Young Turks" took over the Ottoman Empire and made attempts to Turkify the empire in addition to centralizing and modernizing it that the Arabs starting rising up in revolt. The Balkins had revolted one ethic group at a time in the 19th century led by merchants against the govt inefficency + laws that were supressing economic development. Albania was so backwards that it was set free just after turn of 20th century because of a combo of Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs all wanting the Turks out of the Balkins (and succeeding militarily) and yet being able to agree among themselves (to the point of actually fighting each other) on who should rule Albania and compromised on the Albanians gets to rule Albanians.

[joncnunn]

Nationality as defined by ethic descent is extremely superficial.

Go back in the past far enough and you see everybody at one time was a foreigner to where they now live and also are the result of multiple ethic groups merging.

In one of the more famous cases, was during the middle ages the pagan Prussians were massacred by the christian Germans. Those moving into there decided to adopt the Prussian name for themselves.
Along a similar vain, almost every single US state is named after a native indian tribe.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I think it was Norman Davies who put it best in his book on Europe- 'Europe: A History'

Great book, btw

Oh, and on your post about Alexander... truth.

[Straybow]

I thought the Ionians were the eastern Greeks, just as much outsiders to the central (Corinthian?) Greek culture as the Dorians (and Macedonians). After Alexander they shared a common culture. There was no Greek empire without Alexander.

What we can say of Salah ad-Din is he wasn't ruler of a Kurdish empire.