Size of City Improvements

[mhkhosravi]

Its better to let size of buildings and city improvements be definable.perhaps larger improvements may have more effects and take more time to build.

for example : I build a library with size 2 because the city that builds it is small, or in my capital I say to build library size 7 because I want to have the largest library in the wotld (and the game tells which civilization has the biggest one).

or another example : I am persia, my biggest university is in pasargad with size 22, but America has university with size 24 in NewYork, Pasargad is building a great wonder so I tell the persepolis to expand its university from size 18 to 25.

the amount of shields depend on size exponentialy.

for example : building university size 8 takes 1280 shields but university of size 4 takes 320 shields, or size 1 takes 20 shields. (exponential values)


a thing similar to great wonders, but all of sizes is different and no limit on building them in any time ...

[DerSchwarzfalke]

Seems a lot like the minor wonders of Civ III to me, just increased in scale.

Either way, I think it would be too difficult to control balance in such a case.

[Nikolai]

Why do you want all this extreme complexity in civ that you are proposing with all your ideas, mhkhosravi?

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Why do you want all this extreme complexity in civ that you are proposing with all your ideas, mhkhosravi?

I dont think it will be too complex, every city builds a normal size city improvements, but if anyone wants to have some especial features or more effective ones in a city, then he can do this.
sometimes when I play civ3, my 2 or 3 cities has nothing to build, then I let them build Tank,Worker, or wealth ...,
I thought expansion of some city improvements is better.
I think the library that my capital builds must be too different from the library that I build or buy in a far Island.
and perhaps a glorious empire must have greater improvements in its capital than poor ones.

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke
Seems a lot like the minor wonders of Civ III to me, just increased in scale.

Either way, I think it would be too difficult to control balance in such a case.

for controling the balance there is some solutions, : exponensial increase in required shields and ...,
for example every one can build a library size 1 in a good city but size 2 or 3 become as a kind of small wonder or great wonders.
it is not too complicated

[CustodianV131]

I don't see why this would be better then the current system. Different sure, not better.

[Zoid]

mhkhosravi, if you don´t have anything to build you´re not progressing fast enough. Spend more money on research!

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg
mhkhosravi, if you don´t have anything to build you´re not progressing fast enough. Spend more money on research!

but it is too boring to build same things in the same sizes only one time in all of our cities
please some one agree with me

[Atahualpa]

I think it's a good idea in that it will allow later constructed cities to come up with the basic infrastructure faster. But I would put a limit on it...

So have e.g. 3 buildings (for a modern setting):
Book store
Library
National Library

Where the third is the minor wonder that can only be built in one of your cities.

Then I would change your idea of levels into that these buildings become more powerful over time, so that the bigger the level of the building the faster it becomes more powerful.

Things such as wars and other events could then influence this.. if you e.g. capture the National Library of another civ in War, you can choose to plunder it and some of its powers will flow into your libraries (or your national one only). This amount depends on wether their building is more powerful than yours, the civ is different from you (in terms of religion, climate, governmental,...) and wether your current government is isolationist/closed or expansionist/open. Your neighbor civ with the same government and the same religion is hardly going to have anything that you don't know already.


Then to add more complexity (and for a even more radical idea) you could make buildings dependent on other buildings...
Example the levels for the university:
School
University / College
Elite University

So their power consists of e.g. 33% of the power of the library, 15% of the power of the bank and the rest (52%) on itself. So if you build a school in a city with a powerful library it will initially be much stronger than if it has only recently built a poor book store.

Ofc I view several downsides.. first you can seriously cripple a civ with the current easy bombard system by killing their infrastructure (you'd have to change this to do a dampening factor to the universities output) and second things are getting very complex and if it's not fun at the same time it's useless.


Now we can further think and complexify the idea by introducing variable building maintenance which further is a factor for the strength of the output of a building.
Let's say it's: power = (%*power_of_dependant + %*power_of_self) * health * maintenance

The power output is then multiplied by some factor to determine the effect.
If the power output is 0, then the building gets into a rotten state and if not increased again for several turns it's gone. If it's in rotten state you have to spend a certain amount of money to revive it, maybe depending on how many turns it's rotting already.

Growth of power could be exponential and/or influenced again by the powers of the dependent buildings.. or maybe strike out the term in the power output function and only let the growth be dependant so you have..
power = power_of_self * health * maintenance
power_of_self[n] = power_of_self[n-1] * growth_factor * power_of_dependent

all values are between 0 and 1 capped, maintenance probably default to 0.5
And you could change this by varying your government priorities...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by mhkhosravi

but it is too boring to build same things in the same sizes only one time in all of our cities
please some one agree with me

University = size 2 library, research lab = size 3 library.

[curtsibling]

Exactly!

That is the way civ has always been.

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
I think it's a good idea in that it will allow later constructed cities to come up with the basic infrastructure faster. But I would put a limit on it...

So have e.g. 3 buildings (for a modern setting):
Book store
Library
National Library

Where the third is the minor wonder that can only be built in one of your cities.

Then I would change your idea of levels into that these buildings become more powerful over time, so that the bigger the level of the building the faster it becomes more powerful.

Things such as wars and other events could then influence this.. if you e.g. capture the National Library of another civ in War, you can choose to plunder it and some of its powers will flow into your libraries (or your national one only). This amount depends on wether their building is more powerful than yours, the civ is different from you (in terms of religion, climate, governmental,...) and wether your current government is isolationist/closed or expansionist/open. Your neighbor civ with the same government and the same religion is hardly going to have anything that you don't know already.


Then to add more complexity (and for a even more radical idea) you could make buildings dependent on other buildings...
Example the levels for the university:
School
University / College
Elite University

So their power consists of e.g. 33% of the power of the library, 15% of the power of the bank and the rest (52%) on itself. So if you build a school in a city with a powerful library it will initially be much stronger than if it has only recently built a poor book store.

Ofc I view several downsides.. first you can seriously cripple a civ with the current easy bombard system by killing their infrastructure (you'd have to change this to do a dampening factor to the universities output) and second things are getting very complex and if it's not fun at the same time it's useless.


Now we can further think and complexify the idea by introducing variable building maintenance which further is a factor for the strength of the output of a building.
Let's say it's: power = (%*power_of_dependant + %*power_of_self) * health * maintenance

The power output is then multiplied by some factor to determine the effect.
If the power output is 0, then the building gets into a rotten state and if not increased again for several turns it's gone. If it's in rotten state you have to spend a certain amount of money to revive it, maybe depending on how many turns it's rotting already.

Growth of power could be exponential and/or influenced again by the powers of the dependent buildings.. or maybe strike out the term in the power output function and only let the growth be dependant so you have..
power = power_of_self * health * maintenance
power_of_self[n] = power_of_self[n-1] * growth_factor * power_of_dependent

all values are between 0 and 1 capped, maintenance probably default to 0.5
And you could change this by varying your government priorities...

I agree with you, and it is better to have same things about other improvemnets such as market place and ...

[sophist]

In civ3, culture from an improvement doubled after 1000 years. Civ4 (or 5) can do the same thing with improvements. After some number of years or turns, an improvement becomes some degree better at what it does. So maybe a marketplace increases trade by 50% initially and 60% after 100 years. Ditto for a University and science. Of course, this means that Universities and Libraries may need rethinking, as a University in civ3 is basically a Library+. And a Research Lab is just a University+ (or a Library++ haha). That would be a good thing, though; I don't like having things that are just upgrades and don't bring something new to the table.

[Straybow]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, a member named Vagabond had an idea which he termed Urbanization.

The soul of Urbanization is to make city improvements function like tiles in the city radius. They are represented as blocks along the edges of the city map. Citizens can be placed in those blocks instead of on the terrain map. The city improvement defines what benefits you get.

For example, a Civ2 Library adds 50% to Science. By putting a worker in the Library it might go up to +75%. A Civ2 University adds 50% to Science. The graphics for University might contain two blocks, and placing a worker in a block adds 25 to the percentage bonus. Then a Research Lab might have 3 such blocks.

Note that this concept does not remove Specialists, who can do the same thing with lesser efficiency.

[Atahualpa]

Straybow, that reminds me of Colonization.

I think a system such as this could help civ become somewhat more real world. As of now, every city is actually quite autark, as they have to provide enough food for themselves. In real world however cities become specialized and some act as farms while others have high industry...