Historical Mismatches

[AeonOfTime]

I should have paid a lot more attention in history class - but then, in school we just learned world war II over and over each year in more detail. That's the french idea of learning history. Oh yes, I forgot Napoleon of course.

I always loved ancient history, and always thought learning history should be about people and their way of life, their ideology and everything that makes each 'civilization' unique. Instead, we kept learning birthdates of "great" leaders and battlefields - as if history is exclusively about warfare. Always buggered me.

Thanks for the lesson, it's very interesting

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Cvetin
they are just another failed theocracy, much like the arabs west of them. so persians - yes, iranians - no way.

Civilizations in the game can and do change government so I have no problems accepting that the current Persian government just happens to be a theocracy. (Perhaps that will change after they research Democracy )

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Cvetin
the only thing iranian i ever bought in my life is a pack of dais
they are just another failed theocracy, much like the arabs west of them. so persians - yes, iranians - no way.

after islam the soldiers of all middleeast empires had a unique shape that were different from HAKHAMANESHIAN soldiers, It was a persian design(not in cloths, in architecture and ...) .and if you read more historical books U will understand that Islamic Empire was a persian structure, and persian power but with arab leaders.
but after few years Iran became an independent Empire again.
I dont know what is a failed theocracy in your meaning.
Is it failed theocracy when AVECINA's medical books were tought in Europeans universities for more than 600 years ?(the iranian scienctist of a theocratic government,he was a Islamic philosopher and a Gnosis too )
Is it a Failed theocracy that the Name of "UNIVERSITY" is translation of persian-arabic word "JAME'E" ?
Is it a failed theocracy that builds the first free fire agent and Hospital of the world? was it for Dais of kings? or fun ?
Is it a failed theocracy that Persian Library in age of SAMANIANS (a theocratic government) was the greatest library of the world ?
Is it a failed Theocracy that when wild mongols attacked to Persia many of them became kind muslims and contritioned ?
Is it a failed theocracy that the first human rights after Kurushe kabir (Iranian King 500BC) is written with islamic kings ?
Is it a Failed theocracy that one of its poems is written now on top of the door of United Nations ?
Is it order of theocracic dictators that Persian 6/8 Music was developed with our Scientists and GNOSIS men and PHILOSPHERS (Farabi,Avecina,Abureihan,Neishaburi,and ...) not with rotters and . . . . .
Was "GOTE" an stupid man that always prays HAFEZ a man who loved his failed believes ? (the iranian Poemer 700 years after islam, he loved islam, he is a great GNOSIS) or your scientis "fleming" named his son Sa'adi, and many many more examples.
Is it a failed theocracy that abureihan e biruni (Persian Scientist) discovered that earth is semi-spherical without dangeon or burning alive ? all Iran empire knowed the shape of earth before galile and you never asked your self how all Persian Scientis compute the radius of earth without any knowledge about SHAPE of earth ???? because we didnt have your power in your industrial revolution.

we helped islam and islam (REAL ISLAM. not alqaeda!) helped us.the persian language is still alive because of its beauties ,because of its great deals with Islam and with best concepts of nature world and god.

I know many Europian who read persian poems, told "All People must Learn The Persian Language to Understand Great Persian Gnosis and philosophical Concepts".

I dont say we are unique in the world but I can strongly say that Persians Literature had a great jump after islam.


I dont want to say all of Persian Culture here, because I am not a history researcher, and I know that you see what you want to see. you only see alexander defeated Persian Empire but U never see alexander destroyed the great capital of Persia , the PERSPOLIS. why ??? only kingdom ? our people still cry when they see ruins of the great Takhte Jamshid, with typing remains of Kurosh's "HUMAN RIGHTS" on its walls.He destroyed Theocratic government who said the first human rights in the world.Is it your hero ?
U never see abureihan e biruni (Persian Scientist) discovered that earth without dangeon or burning alive.
you never want to accept that persian computation on years was the most accurate computation (Even for most recent 100 years) based on shape of earth and radius of moving earth around the sun.you never accept this ever when you read our scientists books.

our king was a prophet, a good one, not a king, not a dictator,I know you cant imagine it, and you only see dictators and say all others was like this.

Iranians Love their ancient Gnosis and philosophy. because of that nobody understand why we choosed islamic republic after revolution , because we had a great experiment about theocracy in Safavie, Samanian and ... ,
our expermint was totaly different from your experiment about theocracy.
maybe we do it again, or maybe we choosed a wrong way.
We had great Gnosis Concepts after islam, we are still research on our ancient Gnosis, becauese it was not a dream it was the only beautiful reality in our world.and I read Hafiz Poems every day.

but still there are many people who never understand what we want to do and never understand Who we are and what did we do.
We know that We dont walk to reach a target, we want to have a good target, maybe we reach.
maybe we are too close to it , and maybe not.
your honor is alexander.your honor is map.
yes we are failed because our honor is philosophy,Gnosis,Literature,Art and ...

You dont like Persia because it remembers the memories of your theocracy and instead we never liked macedonian alexander and all over the world alexanders.
I offer You ,dear Cvetin ,read more books about Persian Empire and specially culture and literature After and Before Islam.

[Vince278]

I agree that Islamic scholars and scientists were among the best and brightest in the world as the Europeans were making little progress through the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages. However, I often wondered why it seemed like their progress halted centuries ago. Why are they not still leading us?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Cvetin
The Persians deserve to be in Civ because of what they achieved in the b.c. period, with their huge civ. the bullions, the hanging gardens, the heir of babylon, even Alexandar chose it for his kingdom... but persia really shouldn't be in if it would be merited for post islam achievments, like mhkhosravi suggests with asking for islamic iranian soldiers in civ. i mean seriously, the only thing iranian i ever bought in my life is a pack of dais (the fruit, urmas). they are just another failed theocracy, much like the arabs west of them. so persians - yes, iranians - no way.

Iranian is the name that Iranians have been calling themselves for thousands of years- it does a better job of describing all the various empires based in the area known to the modern world as Iran. That way you can easily cover the Achaemenids, Safavids, Sasanians, Parthians and so on in a general way.

Iranian achievements post-Qaddisiyya are quite extensive, by the way- it was thanks to Christian Nestorian monks settled in Jundishapur and Nisibis that texts of the Greek classics were translated into Syriac, Arabic and the different languages spoken in Iran. They were there because the Sassanians had supported the Nestorians (persecuted in the Byzantine Empire) and so the science of ancient Greece was continued under 'barbarian' patronage, as far away as Merv in Khurasan and Herat and Kandahar.

Of course the Sassanids also provided the paradigm of courtly behaviour for the Abbasid dynasty- Iranian standards of culture and art and learning and civilization were eagerly embraced by Arabs, and Hindu and Greek learning were synthesized by Iranian scientists and engineers and merchants.

Some Iranians who should be better known:

Jamshid al-Kashani

http://www.iranchamber.com/personalities/jkashani/jamshid_kashani.php

Nasiruddin Tusi/ Nasir al Din al Tusi:

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Al-Tusi_Nasir.html

Omar Khayyam, as scientist:

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Khayyam.html

al Rhazes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhazes

The Iranians were pioneers in mathematics and astronomy. Later on, the Safavids supported direct trade with England, Holland and France- and European visitors to the Safavid capital, Isfahan, were greatly impressed with its level of sophistication and civilization.

There's a very good essay on the garden city of Isfahan in Arnold Toynbee's book 'Cities of Destiny'.

[mhkhosravi]

Molly Bloom , you have great knowledge about history and civilizations
thanks

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by mhkhosravi
Molly Bloom , you have great knowledge about history and civilizations
thanks

That's one sharbate rivas you owe me.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by mhkhosravi
Molly Bloom , you have great knowledge about history and civilizations
thanks

Or googling the net. Go ahead, ask another question and see.

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Vince278


Or googling the net. Go ahead, ask another question and see.

thats it. MoolyBloom knows which names should be typed in search field
(he knows sharbat e rivas )

[Vince278]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so sarcastic. I also greatly appreciate the culture (and food ) of your country.

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Vince278
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so sarcastic. I also greatly appreciate the culture (and food ) of your country.

You are Welcome,I will bake a ghorme sabzi(it is a great wonder ) for you too

[Vince278]

Thank-you. I think my wife would enjoy some too. I'm not sure when I can visit, I haven't been over in that direction in over 20 years.

[mhkhosravi]

Originally posted by Vince278
Thank-you. I think my wife would enjoy some too. I'm not sure when I can visit, I haven't been over in that direction in over 20 years.

I will post you some

[Cvetin]

Salaam, NoRooz Mobarak Mhkhosravi
I appologize if I have offended you. I was merely saying that some civilizations who were grand once, are not so any more. It's even more true for my country, Macedonia, who went from being no.1 power in the world to a miserable corrupted Balkan sh*thole. But, my argument is, I'm afraid, supported by the things you wrote about Persia. All the great achievments you mention were made centuries ago (i'm not sure about the poem in the UN you mention). What have the Iranians (or Macedonians, Greeks, Incas, Mongols, Zulu... or their descendents) done for the civilization lately?
Like Christianity, Islam was too a source of modernization, education, spreading knowledge etc. But today, the descendants of Avecina can only import Western medicine because the state system inhibits development and research, your libraries filter non-muslim information and don't even get me started on the "first human rights after Kurushe kabir" because an Iranian court a few days ago sentenced a man to be blinded!!! It's sad really, that the nations which have built such great civilizations, who have contributed greatly to progress, are now in the basement of the world.
I think my first reaction was about the islamic warriors you wanted in Civ4. I think that the UU should be from the period when a civilization was at it's grandest, not from just any period which may today be politicaly opportune. So, we shouldn't have Greek destroyers or Mongol tanks (presumed they have some). I would also argue for changing the Chinese UU to a rifleman, owing to their partizans who made the Grand march in WW2, coz I think that the power of medieval China is dwarfed by the power of XXcentury China. But that's just me.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Vince278
I agree that Islamic scholars and scientists were among the best and brightest in the world as the Europeans were making little progress through the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages. However, I often wondered why it seemed like their progress halted centuries ago. Why are they not still leading us?

Two words:

Religious fundamentalism.