Cultural Icons

[Brent]

Where I come from I'm always told that the Vikings were neither a civilization nor an ethnic group, but a profession of pirates who went on raids. Maybe the game should call them the Norse? I am very confused about what constitutes Scandinavia. I consider the five countries to be Scandinavia, or alternately the three countries. I'm guessing you'll tell me the correct definition is the two countries of the one peninsula? I sort of base my definition on which languages are called Scandinavian, and alternately which are basically dialects of one language. I guess nether explains Finland, however. Of course, I'd like to be able to include the Baltics and maybe Karelia, but I don't. Then there's people who seem to think Benelux is Scandinavia. One Norwegian I've met seemed totally confused with my use of the term Scandinavia.

Ah well, I'll let you live in the real world while I live in my own which I seem to share with the rest of us stupid Americans.

[Nikolai]

From Webster's Online Dictionary.

Scandinavia is the region of the Scandinavian Peninsula.

The usage and meaning of the term Scandinavia is somewhat ambiguous:

* In Scandinavia, Norway, Sweden and (mostly) Denmark are considered parts of Scandinavia.

* Outside of Scandinavia, also Finland (and often Iceland) are counted to Scandinavia.

* In a German mindset, Denmark and Iceland are often excluded.

* The term the Nordic countries is used by the Scandinavians unambigously for Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland.

There were Norwegian, Swedish and Danish Vikings. The Swedish mostly cared for Russia, while the Danish and the Norwegian took on Western Europe. That's the short story. For me, calling a civ Scandinavian is utter rubbish and it sounds silly, not to say idiotic. While the Vikings never was one country or anything, they suits much better than some geographical name like Scandinavian. And frankly, the Vikings was much more of a civ.

[Brent]

Of course, the ideal solution would be to have Norway, Sweden, and Denmark separate civs.

[TechWins]

Originally posted by lajzar


uhuh



Not Denmark and the Danish then?

Ninja Turtles as in Leonardo (Da Vinci), Donatello, Raphael, and Michaelangelo.


Yeah, Denmark would the correct one; it took all of us 3 times before we finally got that one right. Hans was alive in the 1800s and it seems to late to me to be apart of the Vikings.

Would it even be possible to include Cultural Icons for more than a few civs? Sounds like something that should be turnoffable for people who have obscure tastes of which civs they want to add.

I'm almost positive there could be a few cultural icons for every Civ; you just have to search for them if you're not a historian of world culture. I found Omar Khayyám of the Persians who lived from 1048-1123.

[Brent]

Scandinavian, Norse, or Nordic are more inclusive than Viking. You wouldn't want to exclude the modern Scandinavians, would you? Again, it would be easiest to agree to have separate Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes. Maybe choose one specific nation of the three for the initial release? Sweden is largest, Denmark seems to be more integrated into the rest of Europe, and Norway is the archetype. Could they get away with squeezing elements of the remaining two under the name of the one they choose, like calling HCA a Norwegian?

The makers of the game should only choose civs they can find the needed data for, unless they want to invent things (wasn't Ragnar invented?), but think of the poor players! We might really want to play a particular Civ, but are we out of luck if we can't find the standard data? If we want to be Hopewell, do we have to mod the game into a Risk hybrid?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Brent
Where I come from I'm always told that the Vikings were neither a civilization nor an ethnic group, but a profession of pirates who went on raids.

Well find whoever told you that and give them a good beating.

Do pirates routinely farm, trade over vast networks (from Greenland to India) and create works of art and literature that have survived to the present day ?

The Vikings did.

[Max Sinister]

Sure about the India part?

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Brent
Scandinavian, Norse, or Nordic are more inclusive than Viking. You wouldn't want to exclude the modern Scandinavians, would you? Again, it would be easiest to agree to have separate Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes. Maybe choose one specific nation of the three for the initial release? Sweden is largest, Denmark seems to be more integrated into the rest of Europe, and Norway is the archetype. Could they get away with squeezing elements of the remaining two under the name of the one they choose, like calling HCA a Norwegian?

The makers of the game should only choose civs they can find the needed data for, unless they want to invent things (wasn't Ragnar invented?), but think of the poor players! We might really want to play a particular Civ, but are we out of luck if we can't find the standard data? If we want to be Hopewell, do we have to mod the game into a Risk hybrid?

I disagree, if we should have one civ, it should be the Vikings. If more is allowed, then Sweden/Norway/Denark etc. is okay. But we know there will be only 19 civs remember.

BTW, Ragnar is a hero from the sagas.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Max Sinister
Sure about the India part?

Yep. They traveled well into central asia, mostly by sailing up rivers.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Max Sinister

Sure about the India part?

The trading networks stretched as far as India- I didn't say the Vikings travelled there. They were fully integrated into Byzantine Greek and Arab trading systems- exchanging slaves, resins, furs, amber, tallow, beeswax and such for gold and spices, and silks.

They did however reach Central Asia, Byzantium, North Africa, Italy, Spain and of course North America.

I think it was in a Swedish Viking grave site that they found a bronze Buddha- showing how avid the Vikings were for the novel, the unknown and the precious.

[Zingraff]

Well find whoever told you that and give them a good beating.

Er, no.

This is like reffering to all the Japanese as Samurais.

The term Viking is that of a spesific Norse professional, who went abroad (went Viking) in the summer to make raids, do trade and explore nearby and distant waters, often undertaking all of the above tasks on each cruise.

Norse is really the most appropriate label, being more inclusive and historically correct than Viking, and less confusing and mislead than Scandinavian and Nordic. After all, a Viking was a Norseman but the Norseman wasn't neccessarily a Viking. The culture and language as a whole was Norse, and as the Viking was neccessarily a pagan, the thourough adoption of Christianity after year 1000 AD, meant the Viking way of life gradually vanished.

As for the for the language Norse, this evolved into the modern Scandinavian languages, but we're still around, and Denmark, as far as I know, is one of the oldest monarchies in the world, originating in the 8th century or so.

Having the Vikings/Norse as one, sole civilization, makes perfect sense. After all, Norway, Denmark and Sweden shares much history, and culturally and socially the countries are very much the same. Besides, in the 14th century, under the Kalmar Union, the countries were briefly united under one crown, and as a result Denmark-Norway remained a double monarchy for four hundred years.

[Max Sinister]

Originally posted by molly bloom
The trading networks stretched as far as India- I didn't say the Vikings travelled there.

Sorry, then I misunderstood you.

[Roidecinq]

Originally posted by TechWins
Some of the names mentioned would probably be apart of the religious icons rather than cultural.

I was thinking mostly along the lines of the Shakespeare mentioning.

Homer for the Greeks; "The Ninja Turtles" for the Romans; "Scandinavia: Hans Christian Andersen" would probably be more fitting for the Dutch if they're included; Descartes for the French; Hume for the English; Walt Whitman for the Americans; possibly Sun-Tzu for China; and there are many other choices. I'd like to see from someone come up with the more obscure names for the lesser known Civs.



I do not see that occurring... The Beatles, collectively, would probably be the best modern day choice, IMO.

Wouldn't you replace Shakespeare and Cervantes with Francis Bacon

For China I'd rather see Confucius or Lao Zi (Lao-Tse)



Furthermore the problem with European history between 500 and 1500 AD is that almost everything was Christian in nature. Culture and Religion are very hard to put in seperate categories. You could argue that it is essentially the same. Would you call the Sistine Chapel cultural or religious? And Michelangelo?

In China you would have the same problem with Lao Zi...