Which Civs are In?

[Max Sinister]

The problem with many civs in a game: If they keep culture as it is in Civ3, we can expect that the game will need several times more RAM and disk space, since they have to save for every tile how big the cultural influence of every civ in the game is. It's only a few bits each, ut you have to multiply that with the number of civs and the number of tiles. 200 civs would mean more than ten times more RAM needed (only speaking about culture).
IMO, if they want to keep culture, they'd have to change a few things anyway (why are all my units destroyed if a city with foreign population revolts?)

About the Jews/Hebrews in Civ: I don't think it's a bad idea. Judaism isn't only the root of Christianity and Islam, many Jews have played an important role in history: Einstein, Freud, Karl Marx (ok, not everyone thinks Communism is a great invention, and he wasn't a praticing Jew anyway), and I'm not even mentioning all the famous Jewish artists.

[Brent]

For my earlier division by contiments, I guess the remaining South American civ would be the Tupi.

Another way of going about it: Four civs for Asia, Africa, Europe, and North America, three for South America:

Israel, Arabs, India, China, Egypt, Congo, Mali, Carthage, Russia, Germany, England, Rome, USA, Aztec, Maya, Iroquois, Inca, Guarani, Brazil.

Or five for Asia, Africa, and Europe, and four for Panamerica. Israel, Arabs, India, China, Japan, Egypt, Kongo, Mali, Carthage, Ethiopia, Russia, Germany, England, Rome, Celts, USA, Maya, Inca, Brazil.

[Switch]

Why is everyone limiting their guesses to 19? Wasn't that just an initial estimate of how many civs were assured to be in the game? I would bet strongly that CIV is going to have at least an initial number of civs greater than 20. They tried simplifiying with C3, but obviously that was an unpopular choice...hence the expansions. But, having realized this, they are likely to start out with at least 24, the number as of PTW.

Going with, say, 24 civs out of the box, we can probably expect: ~ 6 European, 4 Mediteranean, 4 American, 6 Middle Eastern (including Africa, which they did in C3), and 4 Asian.

Well, looking at the breakdown of C3C, we have: 9 European, 5 Mediteranean, 5 American, 7 Mid-East, and 5 Asian. I would say that this ratio is similar to mine, so we could likely except something like what I have for CIV...though anything could happen, and I could just as likely be way off.

[Brent]

19 is the only number we can go by, but I accept and hope for the possibility of more. But going by 20, I would say UK, France, Deutsch, Rus, Rome, Greek, Egypt, Zulu, Babylon, China, India, US, Aztec, Japan, Persia, Mongol, Spain, Jews, Arab. To make 24, I would add Scandinavia, Aborigines, Polynesians, and Inca. I would be disappointed if they call Africa part of the middle east again. If anything, the Middle East should be part of Asia. I could easily be way off. Maybe they'll focus on the ones added by PtW and Conquests...

[TechWins]

Originally posted by Max Sinister
The problem with many civs in a game: If they keep culture as it is in Civ3, we can expect that the game will need several times more RAM and disk space, since they have to save for every tile how big the cultural influence of every civ in the game is. It's only a few bits each, ut you have to multiply that with the number of civs and the number of tiles. 200 civs would mean more than ten times more RAM needed (only speaking about culture).
IMO, if they want to keep culture, they'd have to change a few things anyway (why are all my units destroyed if a city with foreign population revolts?)

About the Jews/Hebrews in Civ: I don't think it's a bad idea. Judaism isn't only the root of Christianity and Islam, many Jews have played an important role in history: Einstein, Freud, Karl Marx (ok, not everyone thinks Communism is a great invention, and he wasn't a praticing Jew anyway), and I'm not even mentioning all the famous Jewish artists.

First, not all Civs have to be played at the same time, so if Civ included 200 Civs and you were still only playing with 8 per game it would have the same effect on the RAM. Plus nowadays with how expansive RAM is nowadays on computers, the problem lies more on the processing and reprocessing of the cultural borders, which would obviously be a problem having 200 Civs or even possibly 16 in the game. It's the thousands of different computations each turn that slow down the game and that problem rests on the CPU not RAM.

Secondly, I don't think anyone is detesting the important role of Jews in the world but those individuals you mentioned were born in Germany/Prussia. I'm just not sure how you would constitue those Jews as being apart of the Israeli/Hebrew nation. With only 19 Civs available to be chosen I'm not sure how worthy that selection would be. It would be great for them to be included but with only 19 Civs available (as we are led to believe at least) I think there are other Civs more deserving.

Thirdly, I could say a lot about Marx, mostly positive, but I'll refrain from going off-topic.

[Brent]

I wouldn't mind too badly if the maximum number of rival civs to play against at once was: one. Maybe the game would be structured to have defined modes where the more the civs, the less complexity.

Okay, going roughly by population, North America gets one, South America gets one, the Middle East gets one, the rest of Asia gets 10, Africa gets four, Europe gets three. Sobtrtact one from Asia for a total of 19, Add one instead for 21, plus one for Africa for 22, plus one for Europe for 23, plus one for the Middle East for 24.

Africa: Egypt, Kongo, Mali, Carthage. Optional: Ethiopia.

Europe: Russia, Germany, England. Optional: Rome, or switch places between Rome and England.

Middle East: Arabia. Optional: Hebrews.

The Americas get the USA and the Inca.

I'm not entirely sure about 10 for Asia. In order of certainty: China, India, Japan, Mongolia, Tibet, Korea, maybe Turkmen? Malays? That would make eight.

To keep 19, keep the 8 for Asia, the 4 for Africa, the three for Europe, the 2 for the Americas, and give the Middle East 2: Arabs and Hebrews.

For 20, add Ethiopia, for 21, add the fourth for Europe, for 22, add Babylon or Armenia, for 23, add the Maya, for 24, add Brazil.

[TechWins]

Originally posted by Brent
I wouldn't mind too badly if the maximum number of rival civs to play against at once was: one. Maybe the game would be structured to have defined modes where the more the civs, the less complexity.

Okay, going roughly by population, North America gets one, South America gets one, the Middle East gets one, the rest of Asia gets 10, Africa gets four, Europe gets three. Sobtrtact one from Asia for a total of 19, Add one instead for 21, plus one for Africa for 22, plus one for Europe for 23, plus one for the Middle East for 24.

So the first part would be a 1 vs 1 game? You wouldn't mind that?

The thing with Asia getting 10 is that most of the population of Asia comes from 2 Civs alone in India and China, then the rest of the majority filled out by Indonesia and Japan. That amounts to four for Asia in my book if you want to go by terms of population.

[Brent]

I normally play with only one rival anyway, to make it easier and so I can use as many city names as possible with meaning for me, when I play a civ that I identify with, like America, Germany, or Scandinavia. But currently I'm the Zulu on a full world for a change, trying to expand and conquer the best that I can. I also like the histograph with more than two civs, but that's not important enough to change my preference.

Point taken regarding India and China, just as well that I had trouble finding enough suitable Asian civs.

Going by length of contact with the cradle of civilization:

If you count the middle east separately:
Africa 6: Egypt, Kongo, Mali, Carthage, Ethiopia, Zulu, optional: Songhay
Middle East 5: Israel, Arabia, Armenia, Babylon, Persia, optional: Assyria
Asia 4: India, China, Mongols, Japan, optional: Turkmen
Europe 2: Russia, Rome. Optional, Germany
Combined Americas 2: America and Inca. Optional: Maya, Brazil

Otherwise: Africa 6, optionally plus one
Asia 5: Israel, Arabia, India, China, Mongol, optionally plus Japan
Europe 4: Russia, Germany, England, Rome, optional: Celts
Combined Americas: 4, optional: Aztec, Guarani

[Xorbon]

To back-up what TechWins said, you could have 200+ civs in the game, while limiting the number of civs allowed in one game at a time. (If there was no limit, you know that people would try to pack 50 or more civs into a game, and then complain when their computer runs slow.)

The problem then with 200+ civs is that you'd end up facing a bunch of civs that you couldn't care less about. To fix that, toggle switches could be introduced to turn on/off civs so that they will or won't randomly appear in a game. (For example, if you don't want to see the Byzantines in the game, set their switch to 'off'.)

That being said, I don't want to advocate 200+ civs. ~40 civs would be just fine, IMO.

[Brent]

And there should be default sets for continents, regions, notorious rivalries, Traits, and overall realworld power and importance. And you can set these groupings for yourself.

[FrostyBoy]

I don't like the way any of the Civilization series has worked; isn't it supposed to be "rewriting history? If so, why are we hand picking existing civ's with pre-set abilities, religions, etc?

Would it not be better to start off as nomads and then choose an identity later in the game? I mean, you're not exactly classified as a civilization at 4000BC.

[FrostyBoy]

Oh btw, the main reason they don't add so many leaders is because its damn hard to create the leaderheads (and on the side - unique units) Well hey, I have an idea, how about no leader heads?

Why not come up with a system like in The Sims 2, where you can create whatever head you want easily.

[Solver]

We don't know what they're doing with leaderheads in Civ4. I'd be content with just simple drawings/photos, though. Like Civ2. If they make animated leaderheads, they need not look too cartoonish, I want this game to be somewhat serious.

[Brent]

The game is about writing a new history based on real history. The game will never turn out exactly like real history, although it would be interesting to try. It is meant to resemble real history, and it would not without existing civs, although it is always possible to create your own.

Here's another speculative list on who might be in, this time based on the most recent Civilizations thread from The List For Civ4:

America, China, Japan, England, Germany, France, Russia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Babylon, Poland, Austria, Israel, Armenia, Anasazi, North American Mound Builders, Songhay, Ethiopia. That makes 19. For 24, add Arabs, Maya, Spain, India and one more, but it didn't seem clear to me from theat thread which it would be.

[Brent]

We don't need no stinking leaderheads, but I wouldn't mind going the Sims2 route. We don't need no stinking beaten- up versions of the leaderheads neither. We don't need no stinking unit animations, why not compromise and go the SMAC route?