Keep infinite railroad movement?

[AeonOfTime]

@binTravkin: Going by foot will be faster than stepping out of a train for 50 yrs

[Addled Platypus]

what about a train unit, just like a galleon ?

can hold x amount, upgradeable ?

Am I bent (!) or what ?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Platypus Rex
what about a train unit, just like a galleon ?

can hold x amount, upgradeable ?

Am I bent (!) or what ?

Too much micromanagement of units to load/unload.

[Addled Platypus]

then it would make you think at least twice before moving your vast hordes to their vacation homes

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by AeonOfTime
Even if you only move 1 tile?

Anything above the base movement on road.

Originally posted by binTravkin


Disembark in period of 4000 - 3950 anyone?

Going by foot will be faster than stepping out of a train for 50 yrs

Voted for:
"fraction of movement"
or
"limited number of units thru RR tile" - seems pretty realistic, you can't move all the country thru one junction in a year.

Hold on? 4000-3950 BC? Uber tech! Iron age railroads!

[Lancer]

In some of the old 70s wargames it took a turn to 'get on' the train, the next turn you moved unlimited distance, then a turn to get off. If attacked in this process the unit defended with a fraction of its defense strength. There was also a limit on total # of rail moves in a turn. This could be based on # of cities.

[binTravkin]

Hold on? 4000-3950 BC? Uber tech! Iron age railroads!

So, wouldn't you wrap your mind around it a bit?

Even if you research rails at the time your turn lasts 5 years (which is pretty late game), 5 years (dis)embarking makes no sense.

[Lancer]

In civ some things are strategic, some tactical. That's how they combine civilization building with warfare. It doesn't take a thousand years to sail around the world either.

[binTravkin]

In civ some things are strategic, some tactical. That's how they combine civilization building with warfare. It doesn't take a thousand years to sail around the world either.

Well you can still imagine it as "the age of exploration".
It took more than thousand years for humanity to get the map of entire Earth put down on the paper, so it could be considered realistic at least from this kind of viewpoint.

But if you want me to change my thoughts, I'd go for a system where:
1.embark and move is on the same turn.
2.disembark and next move is on the next turn.
(those points together make only 1 turn delay for the rail movement)
3.Embarked units have minimum defense (1) by default, but it can be upgraded by building/researching/paying lump sum/whatever idea fits best here.
4.Embarked units have no attack (can't just jump out of the running train), while after disembarking all units recieve their default movepoint count (1 for infantry, 2 cavalry etc).
5.Embarking takes ALL of the units movement points. It's not like you drive in faster if you're on horse. It would rather be slower as packing horses in is not that easy as humans and takes more space.


I would also go for a system where you have "train" units - a transport which only can move on rail.

[binTravkin]

..and those "train" units have say 50 RMPs (Rail Movement Points), which are consumed like: 1 per each rail tile in friendly territory, 5 per each in enemy's.

At least something along those lines..

[Impaler[WrG]]

BinTravin is on the right line but rather then a whole new unit.
How about this...

Units On a Rail tile may "Embarck/Board" this consumes all their movment points. The Unit gets a -75% modifier in combat and all rail tiles are now 0 movment cost for it, hense it can now use them for infinite distance travel for that turn. But it cant move off the rails as that would require movment points it dosn't have.

The following turn you have fresh movment points and can "Disembark/Unload" for 1 point to remove the above effects. Now the unit is back to normal and can attack with any remaining movment points.

Also the idea of having some Maintance on Rails. Rather then paying for each unit of Rail tile lets use an Imperialism concept of the "Internal Transport Capacity". This Capacity dosen't exist anyware on the map its just kind of part of your Empire in some kind of "Mallet Space". You build it in your cities much like stockpiling Cash option (it just repeats infinitly). Each point lets you have 1 Unit Embarked/Loaded at a time. If your Cities are Captured the enemy can steal some of your Capacity, if your Embarked units are destroyed you losse Capacity and if you cant pay the upkeep they are scraped. Transport Capacity can also be bought and sold between Empires.

On Second though "Internal Transport Capacity" sounds dull, instead call them "Locamotives".

[patcon]

I like the idea of a "train"unit similar to a maritime transport (galley, transport, etc.) unit. You get rail movement, but you have to plan in advance for it, not just pay some sort of "fee" when you use it. If you want the ability to transport lots of units by rail - build lots of trains; if you're willing to preposition defensive and offensive units - build just a few trains.

The method of using a "train" would be similar to using a maritime transport unit. (Since the coding already exists for water transportation, and so that the AI doesn't have to learn a whole new strategy.)

EMBARKING
If a unit moves into a "rail depot" tile (more on this later) where a train is present, it may choose to load onto the train, using up any remaining MP. If a unit starts out in a rail depot tile where a train is present, it may choose to load onto the train, retaining any MP. This is similar to loading on a ship.

MOVING
A train unit can only move into and out of tiles containing railroads. Train units don't receive a movement bonus, per se, rather they have a large (but not necessarily infinite) number of MP to use along the railed route. There could be different train units with different numbers of MP, just like the different kinds of maritime transports.

DISEMBARKING
Embarked units arriving at a rail depot tile with their own MP remaining may disembark at a cost of 1 (maybe 2 or 3) MP and then move with whatever MP they have left. This could include embarking on a new train. Embarked units arriving at a rail depot tile without their own MP remaining would have to wait until the next turn to disembark.

RAIL DEPOT
A "rail depot" represents a facility for loading and unloading trains. These could exist anywhere along a rail line. They would be built by the worker action "build depot" on a previously-railed tile, including city tiles. The time cost would be the same as for building railroad, including adjustments for terrain.
Possible additional ideas
1. Trains must end turn in a depot, or else lose some MP at the beginning of the next turn to simulate the effects of maintenance and refueling at a depot.
2. Trains passing through a depot lose some MP to simulate the decreased speed when passing through a depot.
3. Depots act as both road and rail tiles for the purposes of movement.

MOVEMENT IN RAIL TILES BY NON-TRAINS
Non-wheeled unit movement from RR tile to RR tile costs half the usual movement cost for the underlying terrain to simulate the ease of moving along the right-of-way, movement into or out of RR tiles incurs normal cost. Wheeled unit movement from RR tile to RR tile costs double the usual movement cost, so you don't tear up the rails by racing your tanks along the tracks.

ATTACKS ON TRAINS AND EMBARKED UNITS
An attack on a train also effects any embarked units. If a train is damaged to the point where it has lost half of more of its HP, then its MP is halved. If a train is destroyed, any embarked units are automatically disembarked, lose 1 HP , and defend at half (rounded up) of their strength for the remainder of that turn. Train units should be reasonably hard to destroy to simulate the difficulty in hitting a moving train, but should not be able to inflict damage on their attacker as trains don't shoot back. Maybe give the attacker one roll of the RNG to attempt to inflict damage on an unescorted train.

DEFENDING TRAINS
A special train unit, the "armored train escort" could be used in the same way as destroyer to escort trains. They would come under attack before any other train units in that tile. They would be capable of inflicting damage on any attacker, including air attacks. They might also be given the capability of transporting a small (much smaller than a normal train) number of units.

[Impaler[WrG]]

If its possible for a unit to make multiple embarkations and disembarkments in a single turn then thats going to lead to a lot of Micro Managment as people string together these trips. I would just keep Infinite movment.

The Restriction of Embarking and Disembarking only at Rail Depots sounds interesting. I would assume that Cities are automaticaly considered Rail Depots or a "Rail Depot" improvment can be built to give it this ability (along with some nice economic bosts as well).

All this Rail Road nerfing gets me thinking.
In the US the Highway system if even MORE expensive and powerfull then the Rail system, you can go roughly as fast on it and its easier to get on and Off. Lets have "Highway" as a late game Super Transport system that Upgrades Roads, is more expensive then Rail Roads, requires some steep upkeep costs (1-3 gold per tile) and have most of the abilites of Old school Rails aka Infinite movment, geting on and off at any point, no need to board transports (were assuming vehicles are ubicuitous by this point).

This would give us 3 levels of Transportation.
Level 1 - Roads - reduce movment costs of terrain to a minimum, no maintance costs
Level 2 - Rails - reduce movment cost to zero but only for special "Locomotive" unit that can carry other units, pay maintance for each Depot
Level 3 - Highway - reduce movment costs of terrain to zero for all units. Pay maintance for each Tile of Highway.

[patcon]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
If its possible for a unit to make multiple embarkations and disembarkments in a single turn then thats going to lead to a lot of Micro Managment as people string together these trips. I would just keep Infinite movment.

The most you could do is: (1) embark in the tile you started the turn in; (2) be transported to another depot; (3) disembark using 1, 2, or 3 MP (depending on whether it's desired to let fast movers move after disembarking, I'm open to debate); (4) embark on a new train, using up all remaining MP; (5) be transported by the new train, no more action possible. "Leapfrogging" could be prevented by making disembarkment use all MP.

The Restriction of Embarking and Disembarking only at Rail Depots sounds interesting. I would assume that Cities are automaticaly considered Rail Depots or a "Rail Depot" improvment can be built to give it this ability (along with some nice economic bosts as well).

Rail depots are the result of worker action (the only action that occurs in the city core tile, IIRC), not city improvements. Since I'd like to have depots anywhere on a rail line, not just in cities, I think it's easier to have only one way of making a depot.

I like the idea of economic boosts. Maybe +1 for each item produced by a tile with a depot.
Radical idea alert - Allow a worked (irrigated, mined, or chopped) tile with a depot, but not in a city radius, to contribute its output to a city with a depot within a 1-turn distance for the fastest train available. Don't you just hate it when a potentially useful tile is located where there isn't really a good reason to build a city? An irrigated flood plain in the hinterlands could ship its food to a nearby city; likewise for a mined hill. Sound like real life? Where do you suppose most metropolitan areas get their food supplies and raw materials? The last time I was in NYC, I didn't see farms and coal mines in Times Square, or even Central Park, yet the people had food to eat and the power plants had coal to burn. This could get tedious in terms of MM in designating which city gets the output, if a player wishes to tweak every turn, but doesn't have to. When such a depot comes "on line" (either by "depoting" a worked tile or working a "depoted" tile) a dialog box opens listing all cities with depots within range and asking where to send the output. Later, as conditions change (new range, new city depots, changed needs) the output can be redirected to a new city by clicking on the source tile and bringing up the previous dialog box, these changes taking effect at the start of the next turn.

[Straybow]

Yes, the SMAC-Crawler-like rail depot is an idea that has merit. It might be good to limit the number linked to a city.

I really like the fact that you don't have to manage tile improvements. You build them, you use them, end of story. Making tile improvements require management, upkeep, etc is not a really good idea. One tile improvement that must be managed in some way might be tolerable.