Keep infinite railroad movement?

[Paddy]

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Modo44
You are wrong. If you "blob" all (or most) units, your border cities are empty, and can be taken.

No they are not - it is perfectly reasonable in a 'blob' mindset to maintain strong defensive garrisons in border cities. What you 'blob' are your offensive units, which can instantaneously react and counter an invading blob on your turn that you are attacked - and can also be joined by inner defensive units on an as-needed basis.

Originally posted by Modo44
If the enemy has fast-enough units (no Rails, mind you), he can then even move farther into your territory. He can then fortify and show your blob the finger. There goes your argument.

My argument remains - since your entire argument rests on the fact that a blobber would leave his border cities unprotected. This is not the case though, for any player with any sense. See my point above...

Originally posted by Modo44
What unlimited RR movement does, and what it should do, is let you react the turn after the invasion. Which is perfectly fine, as demontstrated by German defense during late WWII, where divisions and bigger units were shifted "instantly" (a month or less, I do not know exactly; far less that a Civ turn might be) between fronts.

Civ games always have a level of abstraction, and do not truly reflect the realities of time. In that regard, the designers need to strike a balance between realism and the presentation of good gameplay concepts.

Limited movement bonuses allows the player the same ability to react quickly, but in a more limited fashion, as it would take several turns to deploy your troops. As I said before, having this limit presents a more challenging gameplay element than simply blob-stacking units and then instantaneously having the ability to send those units anywhere.

The importance of how quickly you can strike/counter is a very important gameplay element, and is a hallmake of TBS games - and having units in position or out of position can make or break you. This facet of gameplay adds depth...if your troops are out of position, you sweat...if you can simply bring units to any front instantaneously, you laugh and pat yourself on the back with the illusion of being clever .

In fact, with instantaneous movement, all you need to worry about is quantity - with limited movement, you worry about quantity AND positioning.

Unlimited movement is a cheap crutch - plain and simple!

Originally posted by Modo44
Without unlimited RR, this kind of scrambling would not be possible.

...A scrambling that would occur on the turn after the invasion is launched, and rewards a player with the ability to put all of his troops on a threatened front instantaneously does not really force the player to preplan troop deployment and dumbs down that aspect of the game.

Any monkey can thus counter the threat.

Originally posted by Modo44
What I would like to see is some kind of delay, before RRs in conquered or liberated territory become functional, so that nobody could rush you that way in one turn. Units have limited movement, so even if someone takes 2 layers of cities on turn 1, he would get bogged down, having to watch the counter-attack. With unlimited RR movement they would just roll over everything.

I'm in agreement here, but this is consistent with eliminating all infinite RR movement anyhow...

[MrFun]

What is all the fuss about?

Just mod the game once you buy Civ IV, to change the movement cost for railroad to whatever you would like it to be.

[hexagonian]

...as long as Firaxis does not follow the format of civ3. which hardcoded movement on rails so it could not be changed. But based on what I have seen, the modding capabilities that are in civ4 sound like you can do anything

[alva]

Originally posted by MrFun
What is all the fuss about?

Just mod the game once you buy Civ IV, to change the movement cost for railroad to whatever you would like it to be.

Modding also involves screwing/scewing the game up to a point where it can be unbalanced.
I for one, prefer to play with stock rules, where I know that I'm playing how the designers errr designed it and how most people play it.

[Ninot]

as long as the graphics designers make pretty little choo-choo's going along the tracks, i'll be happy.

Long Live the Caboose!

[Zoid]

Looks like this thread´s got a second wind

[TomVeil]

The fact is railroads ARE that fast. The only form of human transportation that beats it is air travel. I actually think that the unfairness comes from the 1-unit limit on airlifting, not from the unlimited rail travel. The game should recognize the fact that mankind can travel hundreds of times faster than it could in the ancient era, or even the early 1800s.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by alva


Modding also involves screwing/scewing the game up to a point where it can be unbalanced.
I for one, prefer to play with stock rules, where I know that I'm playing how the designers errr designed it and how most people play it.

Couldnt agree more... its a real headache organising a MP game where everyone has the same modifications, especially to new MP players who arent even aware of the mods.

The easier it is to go online and start up a quick game of civ with a stranger, the more popular it will become.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by TomVeil
The fact is railroads ARE that fast. The only form of human transportation that beats it is air travel. I actually think that the unfairness comes from the 1-unit limit on airlifting, not from the unlimited rail travel. The game should recognize the fact that mankind can travel hundreds of times faster than it could in the ancient era, or even the early 1800s.

Individuals can, yes. Large military units with lots of heavy equipment and even greater supply needs are another matter.

And before anyone starts on the C-5A Galaxy transport, remember that just because a thing CAN be done, does not mean it is feasible to do it in large quantities. No, flying even a single battalion of tanks halfway across the globe just isn't done. Perhaps a company of tanks were airlifted to Saudi Arabia prior to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. The rest were shipped over from the US or from pre-positioned stockpiles.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Individuals can, yes. Large military units with lots of heavy equipment and even greater supply needs are another matter.

And before anyone starts on the C-5A Galaxy transport, remember that just because a thing CAN be done, does not mean it is feasible to do it in large quantities. No, flying even a single battalion of tanks halfway across the globe just isn't done. Perhaps a company of tanks were airlifted to Saudi Arabia prior to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. The rest were shipped over from the US or from pre-positioned stockpiles.

If you have a year (which is the shortest Civ turn), you can do it with ease. This has been demonstrated many times in many wars, especially (as numbers at a time go) during WWII.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Nikolai
I believe it will be kept. Something that revolutionary compared to earlier releases would probably be among the first things to be presented of info of the game, partially to see the response before it is too late I guess.

I'm not so sure about that. I think there's been enough complaints about infinite movement that they already know what the response would be. I'm guessing a small majority would be in favour of eliminating it. At the very least, they will have railroad movement moddable for those of us who are hoping for more strategic decisions.

[Nikolai]

Yeah, I know it's a majority who wants it gone, I was after all thread master for the List thread for this discussion. But I also know there was many different views on how to do this, I would think Firaxis would like to get responses on such an important issue if they would choose to alter such a well known feature.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Nikolai
But I also know there was many different views on how to do this, I would think Firaxis would like to get responses on such an important issue if they would choose to alter such a well known feature.

There's been lots of discussion on this issue, with lots of ideas on how to change it. I doubt they really need to get more input on the matter. They do watch these forums, so they already have a fairly good idea of how we would like it to be implemented.

[GeoModder]

This is only one forum, what is the feeling about this issue on others? Surely Firaxis checks more then just 'Poly?