My 2 Cents: Will It Be Worth My Time & Money???

[Muad'Dib]

I've been gone from this site for quite awhile. But, when I was reading my latest issue of Computer Gaming World and saw a release date for Civ4, I had to come back.

To all you programmers of this genre of gaming. GET SAME COMMON SENSE AND STOP WASTING MY TIME AN MONEY ON UNREALISTIC GAME!!!

Allow me to explain it to you:

1) I WANT REALISTIC COMBAT!!! I'm tired of playing games were obsolete units damage or kill superior, modern ones. Do you honestly believe that an Ironclad can sink a Submarine??? How about a spearmen killing an Infantry unit??? Can you say "meat grinder" boys & girls. Common people, with todays computing power, am I really asking a lot. Furthermore, since I'm talking combat here, Where's the fatigue factor??? Your army & navy units are on constant deployment far from home. When does their morale suffer??? Don't none nuclear powered ships run out of fuel??? Don't all units run out of ammo??? How about range factors on weapons??? An Ironclad is going to go toe-to-toe with a destroyer??? Really??? And where are the minefields??? Does anybody remember the old Intellivision Gaming system. You know, the one before Playstation & Xbox. There use to be a naval game, I forget the title, and the goal was to sail your navy into the other player's harbor. You had minelayers to lay fields & minesweepers to remove them. During combat, you used the circular pad to adjust your firing range. Hit the trigger and your shot flew to where you were aiming. Primitive as it was, it was a fun game. So with todays computers, you can't incorporate stuff like that???

2) Governments don't act like this!!! I want more random events that seriously effect ones ability to govern. Depressions, recessions, natural disaters, insurrections, revolutions, CIVIL WARS. Military suffers humilating defeat--government collapse. Use your imagination. Be creative.

3) Commodities. Does every nation really have an infinite amout of resources. Food, timber, metals, etc. Can't someone out there incorporate elements from the Imperialism game??? In the Age of Discovery scenairo for Conquests, if you can produce treasure, do it for the rest. Tinker with those elements. Anything is possible.

4) Espionage. Bring back bribing and sabotaging of units. NO IMMUNITIES!!! Everyone has a price. Even unit stacks are effected. Player 1 has a nice Modern Armor Army. BAM!!! A couple of spies or inflitrators (whatever) and army is either crippled or joins your side.

Well I'm getting tired of ranting. Need to chill for awhile. Will post more thoughts later.

[Nikolai]

You're the same old I see? Harsh, but not too far off. I see you've been affected by Paradox's games, which is not a bad thing. But I doubt that Firaxis will make a game like Paradox do, it's a totally different way to do it, and Firaxis is known to keep to the old and well-tested formulae. But I agree with what you say, although I'd be less agnry when showing my point.

[Lambiorix_be]

What was the proposed release date? And was it an official message or someone's guess?

[Flandrien]

Turn-based games can never be realistic.
If you want realism, play real-time games like Rome : Total War.
(Although I did not try this game myself)

[Brent]

1) Minefields sound good.

2) Very good ideas.

[Akka]

Originally posted by Flandrien
Turn-based games can never be realistic.
If you want realism, play real-time games like Rome : Total War.
(Although I did not try this game myself)

RTW is turn-based, except for the battles themselves...

[Muad'Dib]

What games by Paradox??? Not familiar with them. I have, in addition to the Civ Games, Empire Earth & Rise of Nations.

More rants:

Combat: Stop the ability to throw nukes around like they are candy. I know with Rise of Nations they have the doomsday clock that kicks in, but the purpose is not to have the game come to abrupt end. I know that makes sense with M.A.D., but that wouldn't be a fun game. I can see getting away with maybe using one or two, but more than that it's just stupid and unrealistic without significant repercussions. Have a government collapse that has Anarchy lasting several turns. Being unable to build anything will cramp anyones style.

Governments: How about incorporating some stuff from MOO3. In MOO3 when you research a tech you use percentages among the different philosophies. And with infrastructure, it's up to the planet governments to build them based on your planning and needs. You don't have to queue Deep Core Mine or Automated Factories. They just appear after you spent the right amount of AU's. No more workers, to build improvements. Yeah, an advanced Sim City on a global scale. Set migration policies instead of settlers. New city will go here, like a ralling point, and when your tiny lemmings reach their destination, new city. All you have to do is name it.

Espionage: More stuff from MOO3, seperate queues to build different types of agents/spies/assassins/special forces.

I'm on a roll. More rambling rants to come.

[Nikolai]

You're not the Muad'Dib from over at the Paradox forums? My bad, you just ranted as him.

Your new points seem good, I haven't time to do more than skim thorugh them ATM though.

[Brent]

Rallying point method of city building is good.

[Muad'Dib]

Nikolai, thanks for mentioning about those Paradox games. Visited their website and like what I saw. Hearts of Iron reminds me of the old Avalon Hill board wargames (i.e. Squad Leader series). I think I'll go waste more of my time & money and check those games out.
Nikolai, there's another Muad'Dib out there???

More rants: Since Sunday was my 39th year of existence, I had an epiphany. No more free advice. Ever since the Hasboro's of the world bought out the MicroProse's & SSI's the quality of strategic wargaming has gone down. So if I have to give them my input on how to improve the games, then I want to be paid. They've taken a lot of my money over the years. Now I want to get it back. Like the 15 scripts I have sitting on my desk waiting to find financing, I'll start another pile and put all my wargaming ideas there. The first script to be sold and brings me fame & fortune, that's when the second pile gets greenlighted. Sometimes you just have to do it yourself.

Arrivederci.

[Jon Shafer]

Muad'Dib: Hate to tell you this, but Civ games are for the mainstream and will remain with about the same level of complexity. Firaxis is not SSI, nor is it Paradox. You can either enjoy the Civ games for what they are or you can pack it up and move on. No bleeding-heart rant will convince them otherwise.

That having been said, it's been announced that extensive modding tools will be available. With Python (a programming language) it will probably be possible to simulate all of the things that you want but won't be included in the vanilla version. So while things may not start out the way you want, if you (or someone else ) is motivated enough to try, the game can be changed radically.

I don't know how much else you've read up on CIV yet, but Soren announced that there would be religion, civics and a new beefed-up battle system. What all those mean is anyone's guess at this point, but I'm willing to bet that it will be an improvement over Civ 3.

[Nikolai]

Muad'Dib: If you like the concept of HoI, wait until January next year. Then HoI2 is going to be released! As for the concept of HoI and the other games Paradox makes, at least the original(EU1 and Eu2) is built upon an old board game, and the others(Victoria, HoI, CK) is built upon the same engine.

[Maquiladora]

2) Governments don't act like this!!! I want more random events that seriously effect ones ability to govern. Depressions, recessions, natural disaters, insurrections, revolutions, CIVIL WARS. Military suffers humilating defeat--government collapse. Use your imagination. Be creative.

Too much randomness and you take control from the player and just create frustration Some people think the random turns switching to a new gov is enough.

[Muad'Dib]

Yo! Border plants, so you want to play a sanitized game where nothing bad happens.

Natural Disaters never happen. Depressions never happen. No civil wars, no coups. What is THIS, Disneyland. I guess some people don't want to think.

[Jon Shafer]

It's a game, so yes. A fantasy reality where players like to enjoy themselves.

If someone is meticulously crafting an empire and then suddenly a hurricane comes and wipes out the entire coastline, or a civil war splits off some cities that required hours of TLC... players will snap their disc in and half and throw it out the window before burning more hours of their time on a game that could be ruined at the roll of the dice.