Border Control

[Toby Rowe]

Hi all,

Border Integrity.

In CivIV, I'd like the cultural expansion binned (trashed).

However, the filling in of your borders was long overdue- As programmers couldn't be bothered to deal with the settler AI they tend to send settlers off to where a city could be founded, even if it happened to be in the middle of your nation.

I suggest "borders".

Once you have at least two cities you have an invisible AI line that no'es all squares beyond it (coding), for 5 tiles beyond it, as the various nations expand, all internal tiles receive an "no" regarding setting.

The most radical solution is to make a city radius actually SQUARE!!, or, even more radical:

Allow you, when founding a city to choose which tiles your workers will work within within the tiles (if say all 33? were offered), as of course, we'll all mould our own border then.

Toby (hope this makes sense!)

[Colonel Kraken]

Well, I certainly think that borders should go beyond (or be totally different than) culture. You should simply be able to claim territory by settlement and military presence.

[Epistax]

Why not steal from Rise of Nations? In RoN the border is defined by a couple factors: science (civic) and city improvements. As for molding the shapes of the borders, I'm wondering if natural conditions such as extended desert or extended mountains should stop the border early, then the left over (missing) squares could be satisfied automatically by something obvious such as up and down a river. For that matter a city founded on a river would have a boundary stretching up and down the river more than away from the banks.

I guess there are many different things that can be done. I think the worst idea is to scrap extended borders (beyond the city radius). What I'd like minimally is a border that I can somehow push out which gives me some sort of an advantage.

[GePap]

UberKrux had suggested that each type of terrain have a different value in terms of how far borders spread along it- for example, borders expand widely in deserts, since they are underpopulated, and along plains. Grasslands and forests and hills are a bit more resistant, jungles, marshes,and mountains take a lot of culture to get assimilated. This would make territories much more reastic and alliviate big empty areas, PLUS slow down crazy expansion by swallowing useless territory with less cities.

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by GePap
UberKrux had suggested that each type of terrain have a different value in terms of how far borders spread along it- for example, borders expand widely in deserts, since they are underpopulated, and along plains. Grasslands and forests and hills are a bit more resistant, jungles, marshes,and mountains take a lot of culture to get assimilated. This would make territories much more reastic and alliviate big empty areas, PLUS slow down crazy expansion by swallowing useless territory with less cities.

That's a cool idea!

[Ijuin]

A way of simplifying the varying strengths of penetration of borders would be by tying it to movement points. For example, say that all cities get an automatic four-movement-point radius plus one movement point for cities (over six population) or two movement points for metropoli (over twelve). If radii of two civilizations overlap, the space will be apportioned based on how much radius each claims (for example if a city claiming a radius of four movement points and one claiming six movement points are in conflict, the four mp one gets as close as possible to 40% of the distance and the six mp one gets 60%). Various wonders or improvements could increase the amount of distance one could claim.

As for claiming uninhabited land, I like what CTP2 did where building a fortress claimed the land in its immediate vicinity similar to plopping down a city. Having fortresses claim all squares within a radius of two to three tiles would allow concrete land claims.

[Arrian]

Uber's idea sounds good.

I want Culture to stay in CivIV, perhaps with minor modifications.

-Arrian

[Toby Rowe]

I think the concept of what the culture model tried to do (stop rogue settlers sent by the AI settling within your national territory was fine).

"The world and your uncle" knows that they couldn't prevent this problem with the AI and so came up with the concept of culture as a solution.

Your empire is unique, every game, they just couldn't work out a way to stop the other AI code sending settlers to the single tile, in a mountain range they could found a city in, right in the heart of your nation.

The conseqence is you spend 4,000 years with 3 units every turn shuffling, simply trying to stop them getting in. Boring.

Influence along valleys/plains won't help if you view the type of maps you have in Civ3 (but a million miles better than Civ2), on huge maps. Massive mountain ranges exist, but still contain just one square they can settle on, along with one other arable tile, and every nation that knows of it, still sends endless settlers to "grab" it.

It's a pain in the something.

Borders!! Yes, that's all I ask for! (The AI need merely X the tiles within- just 6 cities 2,000BC will create one- how hard is it to do?!!) Square cities would help, but isn't a solution regarding current AI.

Toby

PS; I did want this to go into one of the idea's topic's, but saw none that matched, so, please feel free to move the posts, or the idea, and then delete this thread.

[Nikolai]

Good ideas, I especially like Uber's idea. I'd like culture to be in cIV though, but not as it is in Civ3(ie culture flip).

Oh, and the official borders thread.

[Patroklos]

You could just ahve tow layers, one for cultureal influence that controls city swaps and such, and borders that are your actual physical control. ust toggle between the two.

[Toby Rowe]

Ubers' idea might have some merit if the AI stops sending settlers to settle on the 9 unclaimed jungle tiles in the heart of your empire. (Or the single hill surrounded by mountains).

The AI needs to be adjusted, or borders do. Using fortresses isn't a bad idea as they historically would control a border- but it forces you to garrison them, and early in the game this is very expensive, also the game isn't set up to factor this additional time (building the unit and fortress) or cost of, into the general AI.

I still prefer either square shaped cities, or a new system of territorial integrity.

As for the current "culture" system- can anyone name a single city that in unison had the population all throwing up its hands saying "We don't want to be Roman, let us be Greek instead- they are just sooooo cultured!!"
(knowing my luck, examples do exist!)

Toby

[Epistax]

Toby- It's simplification. You think your warrior is surviving 1500 years wandering around with no supplies? Of course it is getting supplies-- just instantly. And when he finds money in a hut it goes straight into your coffers.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Toby Rowe
Ubers' idea might have some merit if the AI stops sending settlers to settle on the 9 unclaimed jungle tiles in the heart of your empire. (Or the single hill surrounded by mountains).

The AI needs to be adjusted, or borders do. Using fortresses isn't a bad idea as they historically would control a border- but it forces you to garrison them, and early in the game this is very expensive, also the game isn't set up to factor this additional time (building the unit and fortress) or cost of, into the general AI.

I still prefer either square shaped cities, or a new system of territorial integrity.

Making the AI respect borders is easy enough if you plan on implimenting it from the start.

As for the current "culture" system- can anyone name a single city that in unison had the population all throwing up its hands saying "We don't want to be Roman, let us be Greek instead- they are just sooooo cultured!!"
(knowing my luck, examples do exist!)

Toby

Yeah, they used to be Greek cities.

[Toby Rowe]

Blimey-

I just copied the above post into the correct thread, came back to delete it and leave a post asking the moderator to delete this thread- and you'd replied!! (I type with one finger!)

Anyway mate, I meant the time to build a unit, then the cost of maintaining a unit in each garrison (the AI on current AI would not bother to also build thus) this would leave your civilisation behind (tech), simply in order to secure your border- a simple solution is required- Square cities or an alternative is needed.

Toby

[PresidentMarcos]

Your borders should be defined by settlement patterns (pop. density) while the sphere of influence should be defined by military strength, or some such.