Terrain: Workers System - Ideas

[snoopy369]

This thread is intended to addres the following topic:

"Assuming a unit Worker system *is implemented* in cIV, what would you like that system to look like? What features would you want available, what abilities would you like to see included (or NOT included), what visual options."

This thread is NOT intended to continue the debate from Civ4-List/Terrain Improvements Thread and any discussion along those lines should remain in that thread, please. Assume that a Worker system is implemented, and they are the terrain development option in this game. Also, if you prefer to comment on how a PW-like system should be implemented, see Terrain: Public Works System - Ideas and comment there.

Please start out by making your first post a *constructive* post, including at least the following:
* A minimum Worker option list you would like to see
* How workers should be generated (and upkept)
* What sort of upgrades should be available for workers
* What types of workers (if more than one) there should be
* What automation options should be included or excluded
* How you would see the AI use the workers

I would also like to see, although not mandatory, a mention of how you would help cut down on the 'drudgery' of worker manipulation, *for those players who dislike it.* IE, in the late game, what automation options would be helpful in decreasing the time you have to spend managing your worker pool, but not take away from the gameplay and strategy tied in with workers? What changes might make dealing with workers more "fun" to casual gamers?

I'd like to see everyone who posts here start with a post like this one, first, so we can have a constructive thread with good ideas flowing, rather than tearing down other people's ideas.

Remember, this is not the place to argue "PW or Workers?". PW supporters are welcome here, as long as you check your allegiance at the door, and instead help make this idea the best that you can -- so that, if unit Workers are adopted, perhaps the designers will have good suggestions to follow.

[snoopy369]

Here is a Quotable version of the Intro Post:

Please start out by making your first post a *constructive* post, including at least the following:

* A minimum Worker option list you would like to see

* How workers should be generated (and upkept)

* What sort of upgrades should be available for workers

* What types of workers (if more than one) there
should be

* What automation options should be included or excluded

* How you would see the AI use the workers

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Here is a Quotable version of the Intro Post:

Please start out by making your first post a *constructive* post, including at least the following:

* A minimum Worker option list you would like to see

I would like to see Workers have the full civ3 options, plus some advanced terraforming options later in the game -- ie, either SMAC style, or maybe not that far, but at minimum the ability to (eventually) recover from a really cruddy starting location filled with mountains... maybe the ability to raise/lower terrain to the next lower type (ie mountains->hills->grassland and back up) but with massive time involvement - and maybe adverse effects on pollution as well. (Perhaps a 48 worker-turn job from hill<->grassland and a 72 or even 96 worker-turn job from hill<->mountain)

I'd also like to see some sort of prospecting, whether it be for resources or for hidden 'treasures' (ie like goodie huts) that perhaps give you a 5 turn (or X turn) bonus on production for whatever city it's in the radius of, for example (well, it'd have to pick one if in 2 radii) ...

I'd like to see workers be able to faster improve terrain inside a city radius (or inside your borders) versus outside borders. IE, if i'm building a slow road to china, so to speak, it should take longer than it does to build a road from Paris to Marseilles (if i'm the French), even for the same distance of road. Building on my own soil means easier to get supplies, cheaper equipment (pre-industrialization anyways ^^), etc. Building abroad means simply more time and expense (even in 'no man's land').

* How workers should be generated (and upkept)

Eh, civ3 style is fine. I didn't like the food upkeep, and still don't. I wouldn't mind 'instant worker' either -- ie, just drop a population immediately instead of having to 'build' it. Might be a little odd though, so i'm fine with building workers.

* What sort of upgrades should be available for workers

I would like to see several upgrades, at minimum a 2 move points per turn upgrade later on (civ2 engineers), and probably at least 1 or 2 upgrades to worker speed (like the 1 we have now). 2 moves = ability to road quickly, which is a pretty useful wartime strategy, and relatively realistic (armies built roads on the fly, often in front of their advancing men and tanks, with steamrollers and such). 1 move limit prevents you from building *any* roads in less than 1 turn per square even if you're willing to commit dozens of workers to it.

* What types of workers (if more than one) there
should be

I'd like to see multiple types of workers -- ie specialists -- if it's possible without too much complexity being added. That part i'm not so sure about, however. "Farmers" that are normal workers but can build a 'farm' which is a 2x irrigation improvement for example (and cost 50% more to build); "Miners" that can build a better mine, or build a mine faster; perhaps "Road Workers", which move like they're always on a road (solving my "army roads" problem from above) or have 2mpt or something.

* What automation options should be included or excluded

Same as C3C definitely, the "Auto build trade", "Auto clean pollution", etc. are VERY useful (especially the latter) to lowering the 'tedium', if you don't feel like being tedious (so to speak ^^). Even further in the "ctrl-key-and-click" concept of worker manipulation would be good -- ie, pressing ctrl-I and then click on a square to Irrigate to that square (I think this may be possible now, don't remember) including building irrigation up from a far away river if need be, but for all of the improvement types. (Ctrl-M would mean "go to this square and mine it", or some other key combo since ctrl-M right now means clear the screen for the map).

* How you would see the AI use the workers

I think civIII does a decent job with AI worker use compared to earlier editions - but not perfect by any means. More intelligence as to irrigate vs. mine grassland; more decision making in terms of building trade roads to other countries and such (it never seems to do that for some reason); when automated, less of a tendency to change improvements I built myself... even when not on "automate-do not tear down" or whatever.

[Brent]

*options:

I'd be happy with basically just Civ3 options or with very limited terraforming added. Definately not as far as SMAC.

*generation:

Civ3 style.

*upkeep:

none.

*upgrades:

I wouldn't mind having them, but I won't ask for them.

*types:

see upgrades.

*automation:

C3C plus: distinction between homeland roads and roads to rivals; orders which apply to your entire group of workers, like Governor options, with often, sometimes or never, including Colony To; Prepare future city radii either in general, along roads in general, or along specific road.

*AI:

preferably better than C3. I guess be able to tell individual workers to remain in a particular multicity region, or near a particular frontier. Be able to allow other individual workers to go wherever they want.

[lajzar]

Originally posted by snoopy369

I would like to see Workers have the full civ3 options, plus some advanced terraforming options later in the game -- ie, either SMAC style, or maybe not that far, but at minimum the ability to (eventually) recover from a really cruddy starting location filled with mountains... maybe the ability to raise/lower terrain to the next lower type (ie mountains->hills->grassland and back up) but with massive time involvement - and maybe adverse effects on pollution as well. (Perhaps a 48 worker-turn job from hill<->grassland and a 72 or even 96 worker-turn job from hill<->mountain)

Sounds good. I especially want terraforming back in the game, as a *late* game option.

I'd also like to see some sort of prospecting, whether it be for resources or for hidden 'treasures' (ie like goodie huts) that perhaps give you a 5 turn (or X turn) bonus on production for whatever city it's in the radius of, for example (well, it'd have to pick one if in 2 radii) ...

Going at a slight tangent, rather than have the city assign workers to specific tiles in the city radius, I'd want the city production to be based on the averaged value of all tiles in the city radius. This would reflect that in smaller cities, the population is spread evenly over the countryside, and you don't actually have huge areas where there is no population (ie no one working that tile). Tiles in 2 different city radii give half their value to each city.

In this model, it wouldn't be an issue which city that resource is giving its bonus to.

I'd like to see workers be able to faster improve terrain inside a city radius (or inside your borders) versus outside borders. IE, if i'm building a slow road to china, so to speak, it should take longer than it does to build a road from Paris to Marseilles (if i'm the French), even for the same distance of road. Building on my own soil means easier to get supplies, cheaper equipment (pre-industrialization anyways ^^), etc. Building abroad means simply more time and expense (even in 'no man's land').

Sounds good. I can see quite a few possible tiers of time cost...

-In a city radius
-In civ borders
-In friendly civ borders
-In neutral/unclaimed territory
-In hostile territory

Eh, civ3 style is fine. I didn't like the food upkeep, and still don't. I wouldn't mind 'instant worker' either -- ie, just drop a population immediately instead of having to 'build' it. Might be a little odd though, so i'm fine with building workers.

I can see an abusive situation with instant workers. Say you build a new city. Your old big cities instabuilds a few workers each, builds roads to the new city, *and* populates it into a metropolis, all in the same turn! And then any spare workers just get put back into city population anytime they are surplus to requirements. I can see workers being built and disbanded on an as needed basis. Instant worker construction removes a huge part of the opportunity cost.

I'd like to see multiple types of workers -- ie specialists -- if it's possible without too much complexity being added. That part i'm not so sure about, however. "Farmers" that are normal workers but can build a 'farm' which is a 2x irrigation improvement for example (and cost 50% more to build); "Miners" that can build a better mine, or build a mine faster; perhaps "Road Workers", which move like they're always on a road (solving my "army roads" problem from above) or have 2mpt or something.

Will "farms" be buildable by regular workers? Will specialist workers be weaker at building improvements outside their speciality?

[Solomwi]

* What types of workers (if more than one) there
should be

This is the big one that stands out to me. No specialists, just give us plain workers, for one reason: micromanagement hell. Okay, you want to build a farm at Washington, but your nearest farmer is way over at Buffalo, not to mention by this point you have 100 workers all around and have to search to find the nearest farmer. Even with different graphics, it would be a problem. Put another way, people are finding it tedious now with just a single type of worker. I see this idea adding to the tedium, rather than alleviating it.

* What automation options should be included or excluded

The more the better, since AI worker use is pathetic. I'd like to be able to tell a worker to mine everything available, without changing irrigation, and vice versa. Also, I'd like to tell them to chop forests only in city radii, or just go and build railroad everywhere. Obviously, it would get too busy to have buttons for everything, but dropdown menus attached to the main buttons could work.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by lajzar

Going at a slight tangent, rather than have the city assign workers to specific tiles in the city radius, I'd want the city production to be based on the averaged value of all tiles in the city radius. This would reflect that in smaller cities, the population is spread evenly over the countryside, and you don't actually have huge areas where there is no population (ie no one working that tile). Tiles in 2 different city radii give half their value to each city.

In this model, it wouldn't be an issue which city that resource is giving its bonus to.

Admitted, that would fix the problem. I don't think the average-value method would work very well in practice though, particularly because I don't see why, if your city has good squares and poor squares, you should be expected to use the poor squares equally with the good squares (imagine a city that on one side is plains with cows, and on the other side is mountains -- average value of a square is like (3+0/2) = 1.5 food and (1+2/2)=1.5 shields, which is pretty cruddy, and won't make a city above size 3 ... but overall should make a city of size like 15 or so. (Of course, that's unimproved, but still it would be not nearly as good)

...

I can see an abusive situation with instant workers. Say you build a new city. Your old big cities instabuilds a few workers each, builds roads to the new city, *and* populates it into a metropolis, all in the same turn! And then any spare workers just get put back into city population anytime they are surplus to requirements. I can see workers being built and disbanded on an as needed basis. Instant worker construction removes a huge part of the opportunity cost.

Perhaps. It was more of a spur of the moment idea. (On the other hand, it's not so bad -- you can do this basically anyways, most cities can produce 1 turn workers anyhow. You could add cost in other ways, like taking 2 pop instead of 1. But it would take a lot of work to balance.)

Will "farms" be buildable by regular workers? Will specialist workers be weaker at building improvements outside their speciality?

Nope, and nope. Worker = 10 shields, 1x speed at doing improvements, only basic ones. Farmer = 20 shields (say), 1x speed at normal improvements (perhaps 2x speed at irrigating, perhaps not), ability to make farm (+1 extra food); etc.

Originally posted by Solomwi
This is the big one that stands out to me. No specialists, just give us plain workers, for one reason: micromanagement hell. Okay, you want to build a farm at Washington, but your nearest farmer is way over at Buffalo, not to mention by this point you have 100 workers all around and have to search to find the nearest farmer. Even with different graphics, it would be a problem. Put another way, people are finding it tedious now with just a single type of worker. I see this idea adding to the tedium, rather than alleviating it.

I'd have to say one thing: You don't have to use specialists. I'd make them late enough in the game, and their benefit minor enough, that you don't have to use them to win. I think some people would appreciate the additional benefits they provide, and some wouldn't -- so wouldn't use them. There are a lot of things in civ3 that some people don't really use adequately -- military units that provide some benefit, like subs, are used by some and not by other.

That said, it's true that the added micromanagement would be somewhat of a pain. I think, though, that the specialization might help somewhat counteract the major complaint i've heard about workers that isn't micromanagement: the dogpile effect. Specialists aren't as versatile, so you have to build them somewhat to order -- and not just have a thousand workers waiting around to fix whatever needs fixing.

The more the better, since AI worker use is pathetic. I'd like to be able to tell a worker to mine everything available, without changing irrigation, and vice versa. Also, I'd like to tell them to chop forests only in city radii, or just go and build railroad everywhere. Obviously, it would get too busy to have buttons for everything, but dropdown menus attached to the main buttons could work.

You're likely to get your wish, if C3C is indicative of anything. C3C lets you do the last thing you ask for -- build railroads everywhere -- with "auto build trade". Mine everything and irrigate everything is a possibility but not yet enacted; chop forests in city radii also sounds possible.

[Vince278]

It would be nice to be able to upgrade the workers at a certain tech level. I'd also like to be able to "nationalize" those lazy captured workers after a certain amount of time (or money).

[Solomwi]

I can see specialists as you describe, late and minor, but am not really sure how much it would add to the game. I'll try to follow up on this tomorrow, as it's past my bedtime now.

On the railroad everywhere... auto-build trade only built roads, I thought. Even if it does build railroads, that's not quite what I'm talking about, since it ignores tiles outside a city radius. I want to be able to automate them and find a railroad after however many turns that got all my cities as well as that airbase in the middle of a thick mountain chain and those tiles the AI city spacing didn't cover before I annexed it all.

[Solomwi]

I can see specialists as you describe, late and minor, but am not really sure how much it would add to the game. I'll try to follow up on this tomorrow, as it's past my bedtime now.

On the railroad everywhere... auto-build trade only built roads, I thought. Even if it does build railroads, that's not quite what I'm talking about, since it ignores tiles outside a city radius. I want to be able to automate them and find a railroad after however many turns that got all my cities as well as that airbase in the middle of a thick mountain chain and those tiles the AI city spacing didn't cover before I annexed it all.

Vince, nationalization needs to only happen by deliberate choice. I love those lazy little foreign bastages. They may be slow, but they're free, and in a typical game I can get enough of them to knock my native workforce down to practically nothing after railroads, and still be able to take care of an entire continent on a huge map.

[Fosse]

Nice thread!

Originally posted by snoopy369
* A minimum Worker option list you would like to see

Farm/Irrigate. I like the name "farm" better, but you all know what I mean.
Road/Rail.
Mine building - on appropriate terrain
Airbase
Outpost
Build Fort
Dig canal

* How workers should be generated (and upkept)

I can't think of anything wrong with the Civ III system for both of these.

* What sort of upgrades should be available for workers

* What types of workers (if more than one) there
should be

Keep it simple: A worker is a worker is a worker.

* What automation options should be included or excluded

Road to Here, Rail to here.
Maximize Food/Production/Commerce at City X
Trade Network
Clear Jungle (with a click and drag to specify the jungle area)
Road and farm this square
Road and mine this square


In addition to this... if workers are part of the deal then I would like to see the oft proposed Worker Mangement Advisor in which you can click on tiles and say what you want built there and the AI moves your workers to build it. ANything you assign to be built takes priority over anything the AI thinks you should build. This could most easily be done by just adding some "Order Farm Construction" options to individual tiles' right click menus.

Then an advisor screen which will summarize standing orders and their progress.

I'll bet that there are all kinds of neat things that a worker management screen could help us out with, in fact.

* How you would see the AI use the workers

As smartly as possible, and not roading and railing every square.



On land improvment in general:

I don't want miraculous terraforming abilities (mountains to grassland a la Civ 2). I like SMAC's series of choices, which virtually guranteed that there was never a "correct" answer to terraforming (unlike Civ III where we have rules like "never irrigate grass in despotism, and once you're out irrigate shileded grass. Or lots of tiles with only one option - like hills, mountains, and floodplanes). Having a more complicated series of choices does make things harder on the AI... but I like SMAC's formers and hate Civ III's workers. The reason is that workers are just there to do the only thing that can intelligently be done with the land, and it takes moving dozens or hundreds of them around to get it done right.

[lajzar]

Farms and specialist workers - If only "farmer" units can build farms, then once that specialist becomes available, players will no longer build the ordinary worker, unless of course you make the specialist 4x more expensive, or don't make farms noticeably better than regular irrigation.

Averaged benefits of terrain over entire city radius - this will of course require some changes in the default values of tiles, and I think farms should have much bigger bonuses in such a system - undeveloped grasslands doesn't provide much food in real life anyway (an insignificant fraction compared ot developed land). We could look back to MoM to see an example of this system used effectively.

[Brent]

*options
-walls. would there be a certain length that would constitute the Great Wall wonder? would the length depend on the size of your map?
-canals. probably couldn't be built through mountains or hills. Maybe could only be one square.
-bridges. could only be built over one square, and only very late in the game
-tunnel (chunnel). see bridges. One would be cheaper than the other, and maybe something could happen to one more easily than the other. Chunnel could be a Feat of Wonder.

*types
specialists would be confined to the radius of the city that built them, and when they have done all they can, they could become standard workers and be able to go wherever they want. Maybe they would be confined to a region/ province/ frontier instead of a city radius.

[snoopy369]

Fosse:
* Worker Management screen: Although this is rather close to PW for my tastes ^^ it's not so bad, since I don't have to use it (and in fact probably have a strategic advantage not to use it, except that for bored players it's more fun). Two reasons i'd not use it:
-- Remember the Governor? Hmm? A lot of people don't even know what I'm talking about when I mention this, and it's because the governor is totally useless unless you REALLY don't like micromanagement -- and shouldn't be playing Civ, by my estimation. It's a horrible automater, because it attempts to be ends-driven but has too many, too complex and diverse, options to consider.
-- Another screen - that's one thing i'd fight to keep out even in a PW system, and I certainly don't like the idea in Workerland. I wouldn't mind having an automation option in a SMALL window, that has like 3 options or a slider or something (for automating workers to focus on trade vs production vs food), but not a full screen.

As smartly as possible, and not roading and railing every square.

You insulting my play style? ^^
Just kidding. Although I do tend to road/railroad every square within my borders, mostly because i keep extra workers around (surprised? :P ) and have nothing better to do during downtimes. The roading/railroading of the AI i don't consider as bad (in fact I like it, when i take over an AI city it's relatively well roaded usually) as when they don't build mines or irrigation the way I would think they should.

SMAC style workers I agree would be better (ie having that sort of options). Definitely taking away the limited options you have in civ3 is a good idea, and giving a more ... diverse set of options, especially a set that makes terrain matter *more* than it does now (for an example in C3C of an attempt to follow this, ask Alexman for the Tarzan mod) would be nice.

lajzar - i'd think you could work something out such that the tradeoff is roughly even; the fact that you'd be paying 2x as much for it means that you'd want to build some normal ones i'd think just so that you could have a more versatile workerforce. (IE, it's dumb to have 2x as expensive Farmers sitting down and mining. I'd probably only build a few farmers/miners, i'd guess (on an average map) 10% farmers, 10% miners, and 30% roaders, with about 50% being normal workers, assuming the cost was worked out properly.)

Brent:
For all of these but a wall, you'd pretty much need an amphibious worker. If you made one, then you could do any of these things (and they all sound like a good idea to me). I'd make bridges block sea traffic, but be cheaper; i'd make them able to go longer than 1 square, though, since 1 square isn't so common but 2-3 might be more frequently useful.

Walls -- what would they accomplish?? They sound cool though. I'd suggest they be a one-turn delayer (like a fortress or whatever in c3c) and increase to defender when combat occurs across it (or increase to 'home civ' units, going either direction in your own territory). Now, the great wall thing i wouldn't think is doable (since workers can't build wonders ^^).

Types -- well, i'm not sure that these sort of restrictions are either doable or a good idea. (Obviously you COULD do them, but the added code would be a *lot* i'd think, and probably more than they'd be willing to put in.) Especially since you don't have "Home Cities" any more, the workers and other units probably don't remember where they came from anywho... I'd think you can adjust their cost and maintenance (perhaps the latter more than the former) to make them strategically balanced. It's how all these military units got balanced. I guess I just want workers to be like any other unit -- get better over time, rather than having basically the same thing you started the game with. Is it really good for gameplay, or realistic, or anything, to have a 3950bc worker able to play basically the same as a late game AD 1900 worker? The double bonus you get halfway through is nice, but ... not nearly enough. ^^

[Fosse]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Fosse:
* Worker Management screen: .... Two reasons i'd not use it:
-- Remember the Governor?

I've heard of such a thing.

The important part of this idea to me isn't that you actually automate choices or priorities (as a governor or traditional automation would do). Instead I just want an extended Right Click menu on tiles that might look something like this:

-->
Order Farm
Order Mine
Order Road
Order Fort
Order Airbase

Once you select one option then the game selects whichever worker would get the job done the fastest (accounting for turns to move into place, and jobs currently underway) and takes care of it. You would likely lose some efficiency in worker movement, but not nearly as much as in a full automation.

-- Another screen - that's one thing i'd fight to keep out even in a PW system, and I certainly don't like the idea in Workerland.

The additional screen I propose is just for extra information, and is in no way required for either normal workers, automation, or the right click system. Much like the F3 screen is currently not needed to plan or budget your military. It's just nice to have.

Civ 3 was really weak on the informative and useful aspects of the "advisor" screens, and that could stand some correction no matter how we improve land.

A "Public Improvment Advisor" screen in my suggestion could show a list of standing orders. In ALL systems it could show what you are spending on workers, list statistics, and allow the player to give broad orders to automated workers. Asking for empire wide concentration on production, for example. It's just icing on the cake.

I wouldn't mind having an automation option in a SMALL window, that has like 3 options or a slider or something (for automating workers to focus on trade vs production vs food), but not a full screen.

Neither would I. I see it as a potentially useful advisor screen though. Certainly as helpful as any current ones.

You insulting my play style? ^^
Just kidding. Although I do tend to road/railroad every square within my borders, mostly because i keep extra workers around (surprised? :P ) and have nothing better to do during downtimes. The roading/railroading of the AI i don't consider as bad (in fact I like it, when i take over an AI city it's relatively well roaded usually) as when they don't build mines or irrigation the way I would think they should.

No, I road and rail every square too, because the game requires it to play well. What I want is for roads and rails to offer movement bonus only so that we get more realistic networks. This is well discussed in other threads though.



On Specialist workers:
I could not dislike this idea more. Why add an additional layer to a system that doesn't need any? If they specialists come late in the game they will be virtually useless anyway, given the huge numbers of workers laying about. I don't think many of us want to think about which worker type should be built or sent to work. This kind of needless complication scares me as adding for the sake of adding.