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Well... even one out of two would be better than nothing ;-)
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That would be ideal, especially if it truly was open source, and Firaxes would officially adopt AI scripts that were better than what they had.Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
It would ROCK to have open-source, editable AI. Then we might have a chance of fighting a real opponent that doesn't take 24 hours to calculate its moves.
-Drachasor"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack ObamaComment
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Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Because chess is nonlinear and counter-intuitive in its implementation, actually.
Chess is in fact very easy to implement. The problem is having enough computing power to evaluate the moves.
I strongly doubt that any player could program a better AI than Mr Johnson (or whatever his name). The only problem with AI, other than the traditional problems, is the programmer is generally not a master player. Therefore, having a heuristic algorithm as part of the AI will greatly help matters. Or at least make it upgradable.Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
It would ROCK to have open-source, editable AI. Then we might have a chance of fighting a real opponent that doesn't take 24 hours to calculate its moves.
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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The problem with MoO 3 is not its original concept is bad. It is the designer bit off too much. Consider that you got a large number of planets in MoO 3 and you realise that you'd need a cluster to do what they originally envisioned.Originally posted by Vince278
Getting dangerously close to MOO3 territory here.
Anyway, I was thinking of having a bunch of things happen automatically like in real life. For example, why do you need caravans to move food around? Merchants do that automatically. And population moves around to cities having a higher quality of life. Things like that.(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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Hard to choose one to vote for. AI seems pretty fine to me--I'm assuming it will be even better for cIV.
Economic model could use some work--I'd like trade and production (and diplomacy, too) to be a lot more complicated
Then there is the banana issue to deal with . . .
"We may be in a hallucination here, but that's no excuse for being delusional!." K.S. Robinson, 'The Years Of Rice And Salt.'Comment
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And if you had the AI scripts editable, then the open source community would outdo what cIV comes with. It isn't any *one* player writing the script, it is a whole community of them, drawing upon advice from a whole community of expert players. The AI would get better, it is that simple.Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I strongly doubt that any player could program a better AI than Mr Johnson (or whatever his name). The only problem with AI, other than the traditional problems, is the programmer is generally not a master player. Therefore, having a heuristic algorithm as part of the AI will greatly help matters. Or at least make it upgradable.
-Drachasor"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack ObamaComment
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Open sourcing may open a can of worms:
1. Everybody has their own idea of whats good and may not be able to come to a consensus.
2. We don't necessarily want the programmers to feel superfluous. We'll have less people (and incentive) working on add ons and future versions."And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
2004 Presidential Candidate
2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)Comment
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Expert players are not expert programmers. It's that simple.Originally posted by Drachasor
And if you had the AI scripts editable, then the open source community would outdo what cIV comes with. It isn't any *one* player writing the script, it is a whole community of them, drawing upon advice from a whole community of expert players. The AI would get better, it is that simple.(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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Expert players can give expert advice on how to play. Expert programmers can turn that advice into an expert AI. It's that simple.
1. Everybody has their own idea of whats good and may not be able to come to a consensus.
The proof is in the pudding. Have the different AI play against each other. Winner... wins...I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).Comment
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How about no.Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Expert players can give expert advice on how to play. Expert programmers can turn that advice into an expert AI. It's that simple.
I thought you got a degree in Computer Science? You should know it's far more complicated than this.
Now go away.(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."Comment
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Originally posted by Skanky Burns
The proof is in the pudding. Have the different AI play against each other. Winner... wins... I love elegant solutions.
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
2004 Presidential Candidate
2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)Comment
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You aren't that familiar with how open source programming works, are you?Originally posted by Urban Ranger
How about no.
I thought you got a degree in Computer Science? You should know it's far more complicated than this.
Now go away.
Or is that you think there'd be basically no one interested in improving cIV's AI? I guess you are saying that CtP II had more programming fans than Civ does? I would inform you all that having a programmable AI would even *attract* programmers from the open source community.
While I am not diminshing the value of the people at Firaxes, I think you are cutting the cIV community a more than a bit short. They'd have more people and hence more man-hours working on things. Since the game would be released, they'd have access to test results by very, very good players. They'd also have a larger pool of creative talent in designing the AI.
Does anyone have any good reasons to think a whole community couldn't outdo one person? With all due respect to Firaxas, it isn't like they are experts in the AI field. I am not buying the "no one can do better", for by itself it is extremely weak.
-Drachasor"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack ObamaComment
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That will just mean the AI that follows ICS and emphatically cheats will win.Originally posted by Skanky Burns
1. Everybody has their own idea of whats good and may not be able to come to a consensus.
The proof is in the pudding. Have the different AI play against each other. Winner... wins...
One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.Comment
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Well, you could try making an AI that doesn't cheat or only cheats as much as the AI that comes with the game cheats. You could also add in an artificial restriction on using ICS.Originally posted by Dauphin
That will just mean the AI that follows ICS and emphatically cheats will win.
Seriously, things like that are going to occur to people programming an AI for Civ. Anyhow, I hope the ICS issue is solved in cIV by making it undesirable.
-Drachasor"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack ObamaComment
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My comment was kind of more metaphoric. If you choose the AI that performs best against other AIs it will probably mean it is employing tactics that are disliked, unfair, exploits etc. I got fed up with the Civ3:PTW ISDG because it turned into a game of winning through best use of exploitsand through cheatingthan through best skills or tactics.
In short I was saying that the winning AI is not necessarily the best choice of AI for a game.One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.Comment
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