Old World / New World

[CaptainVW]

OK, I posted this last night at the end of the 'game atmosphere' thread, but I'm worried no one will see it there, so in the interest of exposure, here it is again:

(moderator, please feel free to delete one of these posts if I'm in violation of the rules)

Old World / New World

OK, here's an idea I've had for a long time; now that I've read that CivIV is official, I guess I decided it was time to stop haunting these boards and share my ideas for once.

Anyway, one of the things I missed about Civs I and II was that it was commonplace for two cultures of vastly different tech levels to meet, resulting in a matchup of, say, tanks vs. knights. In CivIII, ai civs contact each other early and trade techs so rapidly that there becomes a worldwide technology level, with only a few techs dividing the leader from the most backwards nation. One fun way to combat this problem would be to create an old world / new world distinction, both in map creation and cultural starting times.

Maps would need to be created with two continental clusters, separated by wide oceans. The Old World continent cluster would contain 3 to 6 continents, either touching each other or fairly close, the New World 2 or 3. The oceans separating these clusters would need to be wide enough to be impassible to triremes. (the a.i. would be forbidden to use the "trireme cheat" in this scenario) Additionally, "deep ocean" squares could form a barrier that would require advanced ships to cross.

All Old World civs (lets say there are 7 in the standard game) start at the beginning of the game, i.e. 4000 b.c. Sometime later in the game, perhaps 1000 b.c. or 1. a.d., the New World civs (perhaps 2 or 3 in number) are allowed to start.

This could be combined with another idea I read in the "civilizations" thread (by azazel), in which a greater number of civs start the game, but as tribes rather than full-fledged civs. With this addition, unsettled areas of the Old World and scattered islands can be seeded with "tribes" at the later time the New World civs start.

The New World could possibly be seeded with denser resources than the Old World.

With a few more tweaks and additions, I think this could be a fun feature. Generally, the a.i. would play the New World civs, but it could be a fun occ-type challenge for a human to play one. It would be important to be able to disable this feature and play a "classic" civ game sometimes too.

What do you guys think?

[Trifna]

I think that in fact the problem is a bit different: Old civs are forming Modern ones. And it goes in cycles like that, constructing from ruins. So the best would be to bring into Civ:
- The possibility to see a civ break in half
- The possibility to see civs that went down get back up in certain advantageous circumstances (look at China or India)
- The possibility to see some new civ created (look at how Islam expanded, you'll see easily)
- Incorporate the existence of more minor civs, which can happen grow (or not) and crash
- Incorporate sub-cultures (which can overcome the main culture)

Things like that...

[Spiffor]

I think it is a great idea, and that "continent" maps should be formed this way. Pangaea maps and archipelago maps are, of course, a completely different matter.

In the current form of "continent" maps, we already have this to some extent, although both continents are generally quite balanced, making the tech gap not too big when one discovers the other (sometimes not: I remember, being an old world Spaniard, beating the crap out of New World Indians spearmen with my cavalries ). Besides, the tech gap can be filled quickly, because AIs and people will sell old techs like crazy to get a hold of the luxuries / resources of the newly discovered continent. As a result, it is a too rare occurence when you have time to mount up an attack against primitives

[Sandman]

Tech trading is way, way to easy. It should be limited somehow.

Perhaps give a 'shock' bonus to attackers using weapons the defenders have never seen before, like guns and horses, like when Spain met the Aztecs.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sandman
Perhaps give a 'shock' bonus to attackers using weapons the defenders have never seen before, like guns and horses, like when Spain met the Aztecs.

This is actually a very good idea. Historically, the fear provided by new weapons or tactics was extremely important in war. We have seen this with war elephants, we have seen this gunpowder first hitting the European battlefields (and the the American battlefields), and more recently, we have seen the trailblazing strategy of nazi Germany strike fear in the French defense.

I don't know how it could be balanced, but a "shock" value could be a very nice addition

[GePap]

I don't like it.

I think changing the tech system and how techs travel iw a much better way-also, to make corssing the Oceans much harder.

[LDiCesare]

The continent thing (and Old/New World too) misses Africa totally: Although Zulus used iron weapons, they lacked gunpowder when Europeans settled South Africa. The intervening areas of desert and jungles are as much of a barrier as the seas themselves.

There are big problems with an accurae world map: Oceans are huge and rather useless from the civs' point of view. Coasts can always be followed, in particular this means you could go from Europe to America through the North pole quite easily (through Siberia if needed).

So you have the problem is the rapid expansion of civs and easy communication of techs between them, but also the crossing of hostile areas like seas and lands where your agriculture doesn't work (which restricts to more than deserts). If you prevent extension in areas you don't have crops to let you live in, you will limit North/South contact and allow Zulus to meet Europeans with spears vs. muskets. You may also need some better 'range' limitation for ships rather than specific maps.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
You may also need some better 'range' limitation for ships rather than specific maps.

Indeed.

I think it should be difficult, yet possible, to explore too far with low tech ships. Maybe they should have a probability to sink when they are too far of on of your (or allied) harbor city.

Or a probabilty to sink everytime their move ends up uncovering a black tile (i.e, when they are exploring).
This way, you can still explore if you're really into it, and secure some sea-based trade routes, and sea-based invasion routes. But if you're not interested in the sea, you'll wait for foreign maps, or for a higher tech.

Historically, some populations very adept at the sea went exploring much further than others. I've heard Vikings had trade contacts even in subsaharian Africa, and we know they discovered America way before Colombus. I think it is possible to reflect the difficulty at exploring the world with such a probability to sink (a low one, but existing nonetheless)

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Part of what is being said here does go back to the issue of unit supply and attrition. That is: in civ4, units should only be able to go x squares outside of friendly territory before they run the risk of degrading. When they degrade beyond a certain point, then they Disband or Die! Certain units would be able to go much longer distance than others, and harsh terrains would also act to reduce this range. This would help to prevent the 'Warrior Travelling the Globe' phenomenon that we have seen so often in civ games! It would also help to more accurately reflect, especially in early ages, how reluctant people were to go beyond the lands of their ken-so to speak!
Another factor, which might help, would be the ability to add many more new terrains-so that we might be able to add 'graduations' of terrain! For instance, differing levels of mountains-each with an increasing movement penalty-until you reach impassible! Same with deserts, jungles and perhaps even forests. This could leave civs in isolated pockets of open terrain, seperated from the nearest civ by the 'impenatrable _________' to their north, or whatever! Of course, when you achieve a sufficient tech, then your units might start to ignore some of the movement penalties-allowing them to travel yet further into the world! Another issue is that you might have several civs 'trapped' together by hostile terrain-forcing them into either very close
co-operation or very vicious comflict (whatever your personal preference is ).
Anyway, just a few thoughts.

[Xorbon]

I have a few ideas which could slow down the trading of techs, and therefore increase the tech disparity between civs.

One idea is to disallow the trading of a tech for X turns after it has been discovered or bought by a civ. I don't know how logical or realistic this would be, but I think it would slow down advancement a bit.

For another idea, instead of trading techs, civs would trade science 'beakers' to help a civ research the tech they are currently working on. Therefore, only up to one tech could be traded at a time. A civ would only be able to provide beakers for a tech they already have.

My last idea simply involves making the AI more reluctant to give away their techs, even in tech-for-tech deals. I don't know how that would be implemented though. A problem with this is the AI would be at a disadvantage to human opponents in multiplayer, since the human players could freely trade their techs between each other.

[Plotinus]

I agree with the Aussie Lurker. The suggestions that have been made elsewhere for introducing ranges to units would make everything more realistic and interesting.

[LDiCesare]

Beyond unit range, settling range would be important too: You start with one kind of crops, which is suited to one area. Other crops must be learned somehow. Until you learned how to adapt yourself to, f.e. desert area, you can't irrigate them (or even settle them).

[Plotinus]

Also, there's a theory that the Carthaginians reached America, long before even the Vikings... it just makes them even cooler!

[CaptainVW]

Just re-discovered this post, made right after civ 4's announcement... The Terra maptype is EXACTLY what I was describing. Also, sandman's "shock" bonus made it in as a unit promotion! I'm glad that Apolyton keeps old posts, it's fun to look back...