Civ 4 Combat Factors

[wrylachlan]

In the combat list, the stacked vs unit thread, and the Unit list, I feel like sometimes the conversation goes in a circle somehow, so I want to propose a different process for coming up with a new combat proposal for Civ 4.

I want to start a list of all the possible force multipliers or "Combat Factors" that could effect combat in real life. Then once we have a huge, as comprehensive as possible list, use that as the basis to try to come up with a new system of game mechanics.

This will be just a list. Any comments about "dude, it'd make it way too complicated to try to model that" don't belong here. Once the list is complete, then we can do a winnowing process to figure out which to try to include in the game mechanics.

To start:
Flanking
Fatigue
Morale
Firepower
Range
Accuracy
Overwhelming Numbers
Initiative
Element of Surprise
Supply
Combined arms.
Experience.
Training.
Fortifications.
Leadership.
Artillery (specifically vs. walls or other fortifications)
Troop Intelligence (troop location, etc.)
Tactical Intelligence (knowledge of an enemy civ's common tactics)
Strategic Mobility (speed getting to the battle)(mounted infantry who dismount to fight)
Tactical Mobility (speed with a useful aplication in battle)(cavalry)

Note: I am adding in suggestions as I get them. Since they are just terms I'm not going to put attributions on the list which I think would just clutter it. If anyone strongly disagrees with that I'm willing to listen.

[LDiCesare]

Combined arms.
Experience.
Training.
Fortifications.
Artillery.
Scouting/inteligence.
Weapons.
Mobility (at tactical level).
Leadership.
Knowledge of opponents strategies/tactics (think the first meetings between Incas and Spanish).

If you want something different from units/stacks, you could also decide to change the combat model into something similar to the culture spreading, except units would send military power around them the way cities radiate culture. When two unit meet, you compare the radiated military strength, which includes strength irradiating from other units nearby, thus representing support. An entrenched unit would radiate more power than a not entrenched unit.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Artillery.
Scouting/inteligence.
Mobility (at tactical level).
Knowledge of opponents strategies/tactics (think the first meetings between Incas and Spanish).

A couple of questions:
1)Is artillery fundamentally different from Range and Aim? Could you argue that an artillery unit is simply a unit with a big range and damage, but not enough aim to do damage to a specific target?
2)How is intelligence different from Knowledge of Opponents tactics?
3)What do you mean by at a tactical level? How is this different from the units mobility as a whole?

[Kuciwalker]

Why can't we just keep A/D/M? It is FAR simpler and is PROVEN to work well.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by skywalker
Why can't we just keep A/D/M? It is FAR simpler and is PROVEN to work well.

We can. In fact, if after exploring the options and debating back and forth different suggestions it seems to me that the pros of the current systems simplicity outweigh the cons of the best alternative system we come up with, I'll be happy to join you in advocating that we keep the current system. We're not at that point yet, however.

What bothers you so much about exploring the options?

[Kuciwalker]

Because you make really long posts, and then I have to actually use my head and think about them

I think that all of these things can really be condensed into A/D/M anyways, so that the results will be basically the same as with the system you are proposing but the system will be simpler.

[Fosse]

wrylachlan,

Great thread start. Hopefully we can keep this one as close to what you've asked for as is possible.

I'd like to address a point:

Leadership
Let each battle allow for the discovery of a great military leader, a la Civ 3. This leader has one function: To lead the army unit that generated him. He will increase troop morale, and provide various bonuses to the army. Every generated military leader will provide a different type or combonation of bonuses to their troops. Thus: leadership.


I'd write more, but dinner is ready!

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by skywalker
Why can't we just keep A/D/M? It is FAR simpler and is PROVEN to work well.

*coughs* Spearman *coughs* Tank *coughs*

[Kuciwalker]

*cough* 1 in 1000 chance *cough*

[MrBaggins]

*coughs* fortified behind *coughs* city walls *coughs*

[Kuciwalker]

*cough* attack 24 *cough* vs. defense 4 *cough*

[MrBaggins]

*coughs* 1 in 6 *coughs* without firepower or hps *coughs*

[Kuciwalker]

*cough* actually that's 1 in 7 *cough* and HP's exist *cough*

[MrBaggins]

so... you meant to say A/D/M/HP then?

[Fosse]

No matter how many times a spear beats a tank, the A/D/M system is overly simplistic, and something better can be devised.

The whole point of this thread was to talk about what could be done, not about what has been "proven."