Squares, Hexes, Octagons...

[Leland]

Originally posted by Flinx

Hexagons, like squares, form a flat surface when you put them together edge to edge.

12 pentagons form a dodecahedron. If you add hexagons between the pentagons you get a football. You can add as many hexagons as you like to create as large a 'ball' as you like, the only requirement is that you keep the 12 pentagons otherwise the structure does not close in on itself. This is how geodesic domes are built.

Just to clarify, you also have to distort the hexes a little bit to make a geodesic dome. Otherwise you won't get anywhere from the "soccer ball" shape, just slightly more details on the sides. This distortion is clearly visible to the eye, so geodesic maps (if anyone ever actually implements them in a game) will require some sort of 3d engine or at the very least a clever 2d vector-based one instead of good old fashioned bitmap tiling.

[sabrewolf]

i think we should differ between "real" spherical maps and "flat" maps.

real ones would indeed need distortions to create a sphere. but that's a general problem and i don't think there's any tile-based game that uses a globe (there's the X:COM-type games with points on the sphere or the risk-list games where irregular areas (like countries or continents) fill the surface.

on flat maps we don't have this problem because we don't need the 3-dimensional aspect. and especially for tile-based games like civilization IV, it really doesn't matter too much if the time you take to going along the equator takes the same long as walking along the polar circle (in reality, it's just a fraction).

i'm sure that for a game like civilization, it would be a great feature to have the "replay"-function or the world overview statistics based on a real globe. but IN the game, it just leads to complications

btw: for the same reason, i think hexagonal tiles won't come. allthough they're superior in most aspects (and my preference), the average buyer may just have trouble with it. anyway, in summer the first civ IV screenshots should be available, then we'll see how much/little has changed!

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Flinx

Hexagons, like squares, form a flat surface when you put them together edge to edge.

12 pentagons form a dodecahedron. If you add hexagons between the pentagons you get a football. You can add as many hexagons as you like to create as large a 'ball' as you like, the only requirement is that you keep the 12 pentagons otherwise the structure does not close in on itself. This is how geodesic domes are built.

Don't think there is such a thing as a game with geodesic/football style mapping (and with good reason). A mapping style (in gaming at least) that gives you the most number of equal choices is the best. I believe the best choices we have discussed so far are (in order of the highest number of equal choices):
1. Vector
2. Hex
3. Square

[Vince278]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
i think we should differ between "real" spherical maps and "flat" maps.

real ones would indeed need distortions to create a sphere. but that's a general problem and i don't think there's any tile-based game that uses a globe (there's the X:COM-type games with points on the sphere or the risk-list games where irregular areas (like countries or continents) fill the surface.

on flat maps we don't have this problem because we don't need the 3-dimensional aspect. and especially for tile-based games like civilization IV, it really doesn't matter too much if the time you take to going along the equator takes the same long as walking along the polar circle (in reality, it's just a fraction).

i'm sure that for a game like civilization, it would be a great feature to have the "replay"-function or the world overview statistics based on a real globe. but IN the game, it just leads to complications

btw: for the same reason, i think hexagonal tiles won't come. allthough they're superior in most aspects (and my preference), the average buyer may just have trouble with it. anyway, in summer the first civ IV screenshots should be available, then we'll see how much/little has changed!

I largely agree with all of that. It might be interesting if we could start with a globe on screen (like X-Com) and just drill down to whatever level we need. It would work best with vector movement. Cities would have a true city radius rather than a number of tiles. I think Civ could work like that but I realize this is just wishful thinking on my part. Doing this with hexes and squares would, as you say, lead to complications.

[Flinx]

Originally posted by Leland
Just to clarify, you also have to distort the hexes a little bit to make a geodesic dome. Otherwise you won't get anywhere from the "soccer ball" shape, just slightly more details on the sides.

No you do not need to distort the hexagons. It is the presence of the 12 pentagons that causes the structure to close in on itself.

I am in favour of keeping the isometric square grid. My post was in reply to Vince278’s speculation that the idea grap1705 brought up could be achieved with only hexagons, it cannot.

[Leland]

Originally posted by Flinx
No you do not need to distort the hexagons. It is the presence of the 12 pentagons that causes the structure to close in on itself.

Yes, but if you don't distort the hexagons, the map is going to remain the shape of a football no matter how many tiles you have. A geodesic sphere on the other hand gets closer and closer to a spherical shape the more tiles it contains.

I am in favour of keeping the isometric square grid. My post was in reply to Vince278’s speculation that the idea grap1705 brought up could be achieved with only hexagons, it cannot.

True. But it's fun to speculate!

[Flinx]

ok I know I am semi hijacking this thread buy continuing this but....

What do you mean by "distorted?"

Oh and we are talking about a FIFA Football aka a Soccer ball

[Monsto]

K I S S - keep it simple, stupid

the ultimate goal of the game is to make the game fun looking for attracting new players while retaining general entertainment for old pros.

Most ppl that have played computer games are fully aware of table top games that use hex movement. . . and that watching even 1 player turn of that can be "wtf" to anyone that doesn't know the game. not to mention the nerd factor of those of us that play em . . . and yes i'm one of em.

so KISS would dictate that the game stick with iso-squares 1) for ease of new player acclimation 2) for the masses of players that have never even seen this site let alone patch their game and 3) it doesn't require an overhaul of ai for automated/ai movement.

[Vince278]

Iso-squares aren't very KISS. My first reaction when I saw them in Civ was wtf. But yes, I don't think they'll needlessly complicate things for us hardcore players.

[The Mad Monk]

I prefer hexes -- with the stipulation that it wouldn't cause other areas of the game to suffer.

[Skanky Burns]

Iso-squares are not easy for new players to get used to. Does pressing 7 move my guy to this square or that square? As the squares are on an angle, it isn't as clear-cut as with your Civ1 top-down squares.

With hex, on the other hand, the keys correspond directly to your desired direction of movement. Assuming 4 and 6 aren't used, it is quite obvious to predict where you unit will go when you press one of the keypad numbers.

[sabrewolf]

i think most new players use the mouse anyway. that's the "natural" thing for anyone coming from any other type of game.

[Leland]

Originally posted by Flinx
What do you mean by "distorted?"

Not quite regular. In a geodesic sphere for example the triangles are only approximately regular (i.e. every angle is not exactly 60 degrees). On the other hand, dodecahedron for example consists of "non-distorted" regular triangles.

[Leland]

Originally posted by Monsto
K I S S - keep it simple, stupid

the ultimate goal of the game is to make the game fun looking for attracting new players while retaining general entertainment for old pros.

This is true of existing Civ series, but who's to say that there should never be a civ-like game that tries to have a slightly more complex system? If Sid Meier had followed the KISS principle and carbon copied his map from the civilization board game, we wouldn't even be having this conversation over various tile shapes.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
i think most new players use the mouse anyway. that's the "natural" thing for anyone coming from any other type of game.

In the interests of preventing RSI, I would prefer alternate means of moving units rather than having to rely on the mouse.