[BtS Mod] WOLFSHANZE MOD (Industrial Age & Naval)

[ladiesman]

Originally posted by Wolfshanze

Funny... I lived in Oklahoma for many years... you know... "Indian Territory"... I knew a lot of native americans... been on several reservations... they called themselves native americans.

Give me a break... it's like saying black people don't call themselves "blacks" or "African Americans". Just because you don't like the term doesn't mean it's not used on a wide scale by many including the native tribes themselves.

You need to let it go... I actually went to reservations and they had no problem calling themselves native americans... you need to just accept how it is.

I'm not changing it to insult several hundred tribes just to name one or two because some people have a problem using the term "Native American" which is a perfectly legit term.

We've argued about this like a thousand times now and you've never gotten what i'm saying.

*AS A GROUP*, their adjective, IS "Native Americans". Yes.

*AS A NATION/COUNTRY/POLITICAL GROUP* their name *IS NOT* "Native America"

There is not, has not, nor ever will there be a country, empire, city state, nation, tribe, or anything of the sort called "Native America".

As a group of people, "Native Americans" is a perfectly legit term of course. "Native America" as a country is flat out incorrect, and just does not sound right.

For in-game purposes, it is not realistic to use ALL Native America tribes as playable civs. Therefore rather than simply giving them a cumbersome name that doesn't really make any sense for an empire name, i'd like to see.........something else.

This is NOT saying that "All native peoples of North America are Sioux/Iroqouis/whatever". It is in no way an attempt to offend any individual tribe. It is merely an attempt to change a rather awkward sounding nation name of "Native America" to something a little more aesthetically pleasing. It just so happens that the Sioux and Iroqouis are a tad closer to something that could be considering a civilization by game standards than some other tribes. This is no way meant to be offensive to any other tribe, it is merely a historical comparison.

To use your African American comparison, what i'm suggesting is actually no different than what was done in game already. There is no "Africa" civ. There's Ethiopia. There's Mali. There's Zululand. I'm merely pointing out that if the makers of civ decided to just make a lumped together "Africa" civ........i'd be doing the same thing for them, trying to get one group singled out. Afterall, going by your logic, you should see how the game is now currently as offensive and disrespectful towards the Akwa, Ambo, Uganda, Bantu, Nguni, Kenyan, Somali, Swazi, Zande, etc.

To recap; i'm not saying Native Americans don't call themselves Native Americans. I'm saying they wouldn't call a Native American nation "Native America".

[phungus420]

ladiesman, first off, I completely agree with you. Secondly, it's an easy fix, a simple XML tweak. Wolf disagrees, and his reasons are valid ones, which he expressed clearly and directly. There comes a point where you should really just accept the fact that you can agree to disagree, especially since for your own games, you can easily change the name.

Wolf am I correct in assuming motorized inf aren't making it into 2.86? When they do make it in, I suggest you rename INFANTRY to Squad Infantry, as I think this is really what the Unit type is about, a combination of mass produced gear combined with squad based combat tactics instead of massed formations. Also doesn't it bother you that pretty much every Unit_Combat melee, Archer, Trench & Gun can be considered Infantry, or is this like the Native American thing?

[ladiesman]

Originally posted by phungus420
ladiesman, first off, I completely agree with you. Secondly, it's an easy fix, a simple XML tweak. Wolf disagrees, and his reasons are valid ones, which he expressed clearly and directly. There comes a point where you should really just accept the fact that you can agree to disagree, especially since for your own games, you can easily change the name.

I actually did a long time ago. I didn't want to go there again. At this point it's more of an unrelated argument about semantics.

I've accepted he's not changing the name in the mod....I accepted that a long time ago. I'm arguing the reasoning now. It's a healthy debate, i'm not taking it personally and I don't THINK Wolf is.

As for the game itself....

Um....Wolf....I don't know what happened this time. So i'm playing and for once i'm actually concentrating on my navy (I usually let enemies land then deal with it). I don't know if you changed anything in tech trees for the naval units but I jumped from Age of Sail to Dreadnought Age. I wish I could be more specific with how I did it, but I wasn't keeping track.

[equineforecaster]

Three Questions/Ideas on my end- since I know these are ideas Wolf has thought about.

You said you were thinking about a tech to make factories earlier- how about Manufacturing as the name of it?

Prereq would be Economics and maybe Chemistry , would be a Req for Corporation and Rifling

Would give the Factory, and maybe you could move a military unit to there, such as Cannon.

The next two are really requests, but I know you've looked at the first

1) APC's. Where should APC's fit in? Also, should Anti-Tank Infantry have a bonus against them (that unit needs a boost in general I think, I've only ever built them in one game) I don't like one tech providing most of the best WWII units. Maybe you should add in another tech for Blitzkrieg Doctrine that would enable some WWII units such as APC and Tank. What made the Blitzkrieg so special was the doctrine behind it more then technology.

I know you dislike adding techs, but I think this one would make sense, just like Air Superiority.

2) I'd still like to see true Napoleonic Infantry at some point, but that can wait until you're satisfied with the rest of it.

[Ekmek]

Wolf - a suggestion for 2.86. Change some of the text related to spies. I think its rather bland to see "water poisoned by enemy infiltrators." For a more modern focused mod like yours changing enemy infiltrators to "terrorists" adds to the flavor. I have it in my gametext I'll post it if interested.

[Pitboss Korea]

Wow, sorry for making the Native American thing an issue, I was just trying to help.

I guess I'll just state why I made the Iroquois and Sioux the two Native American civs, and its quite simple; because they were former Civilization civs.

If it was the Cherokee, or the Pueblo or any other nations they would have been used in my mod. So that is the only reason why I have replaced the Native Americans in my mod with those two tribes. That and I found flavored units for them.

EDIT: This is The Capo BTW, I am not supposed to make posts outside of the diplogame thread with this log-in. I forgot I was logged in as PBK. Sorry.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Pitboss Korea
I guess I'll just state why I made the Iroquois and Sioux the two Native American civs, and its quite simple; because they were former Civilization civs.

Ah, Tradition. Bringing mankind excellent reasons for doing things ever since... umm, I forget what it was or why they did it in the first place. STILL! It warms me deep in the cockles of my heart to see someone doing something just because that's the way it was done before.

[tomppb]

I think Grenadiers are pretty much Napleonic Infantry. If you don't like the name"Grenadiers" just change it. But the Grenadier, Cuirassier, Cannon age that is pretty much napoleonic warfare.


As for Native Americans, can we just move on. Its wolf's mod he does the work and we get the fun so if he doesn't want to change it, forget about it. Its simple enough to change on your own for your personal mod. Its just not worth fighting over. Although I do think its a neat idea to give individual city tribal names. just my two bits

[wodan11]

Originally posted by tomppb
I think Grenadiers are pretty much Napleonic Infantry.

I think it's the hats that give them away.

[tomppb]

The hats are *****in' (can I say that )

[tomppb]

I guess I can't because it was auto censored

[Ekmek]

Wolfie,

Is this Santa Anna any closer? Comments?

edit: reduced to less than 800pixels wide. Man now I remember why Istopped going on Aployton - too restrictive on posting stuff and DL database is horrible.

[Wolfshanze]

Wow... that is about a 1,000x better Santa Anna... much better... moi bueno!

[The Capo]

Awesome Santa Anna Ekmek. The only two nitpicks I'd make about it are these; first I'd move that third "blue medal" either centered underneath the othe two, or to the left of the first one, it looks a little lost in the clutter of his uniform. And any possibility of adding the Mexican coat of arms to his sash (the eagle eating the snake on the cactus between the laurels). I think this would make him look just a bit better. But he looks good as it is.

[Wolfshanze]

Originally posted by The Capo
Awesome Santa Anna Ekmek. ...any possibility of adding the Mexican coat of arms to his sash (the eagle eating the snake on the cactus between the laurels). I think this would make him look just a bit better. But he looks good as it is.

I think Capo means this Eagle... but in any case, I agree... looks great as-is, but here's the Eagle if you want it...