[Mod request] The National State

[Baldyr]

The different civilizations in Civ 4 can be described as the culture of those civilizations, rather than the people of that nation. Thus the cultural influence aspect of the game functions comfortable up to a point. Up to this point new peoples (nations of peoples) join up with the culture of the dominant empire, represented on the map by individual squares changing allegiances. That point being the acquisition of the Nationalism technology, which represents a completely new concept for a civilization. The abstract concept of a national state, defined by its borders, thus making anyone living inside of them the same nationality.

The following is my take on a proposed mod for Civ 4, which I will personally not be doing myself. I would very much like such a mod to be realized, so please read on...

Request #1: NATIONAL BORDERS

Once your civilization acquires Nationalism, its borders will be forever protected from any expansion from rival civilization's borders. Your culture can still spread as usual, though, but only until all neighbors have access to the Nationalism technology.

Your neighbor's culture will still spread within your national borders, but it will not effect the actual borderline. (You could very well have 100% foreign culture within your borders.) Your cities are also still affected by foreign culture - the riot factor stays unchanged. See also below.

The point being: You want to acquire Nationalism, since it offers an advantage to your civilization. The AI should also want to get hold of Nationalism as fast as possible.

Request #2: NATIONAL ASSIMILATION

When you research Nationalism it starts a process of assimilation within your national borders. Slowly the percentage of people in your cities (and on the individual map squares) will increasingly start identifying themselves as your nationality. Since foreign culture still affect your nation state, it's a constant tug of war between assimilation and foreign cultural influence.

The point being: With a strong domestic culture it should be possible to have a completely assimilated populace, if unlikely.

Request #3: LAND SUCCESSIONS

Since you can't increase your borders with rival Nation States due to superior culture, you should be able to conquer individual map squares or entire land masses by invading them (without taking any cities, see also below). Whenever two Nation States sign a peace treaty the national borders of the warring parties will be redrawn to reflect the frontlines. There can be unoccupied space between your front troops and your national border, but any land acquisitions should be connected to your existing borders (by land or by sea). If your enemy has any units between your troops and your own borders, this land can't be acquired.

The point being: You should try to push as far as possible into your enemy's borders prior to signing any treaties. The AI should also have this as an objective. It shouldn't also agree to massive losses of territory without it's actual cities being seriously threatened, or them being successfully besieged.

Request #4: SEPARATISTS

After your neighbors acquire Nationalism some of the people living in the border areas of your nation could develop separatist ideas. The requirement for this would be that your nationality isn't the only one in that map square. (A square with no domestic culture what so ever would always sooner or later become separatist. Such as a foreign square acquired from land succession.)

A military unit, the Separatist or Rebel unit, will represent the separatist movement. (The mod maker could use a Rifleman or whatever as far as graphics and stats go. The rival nation should of course have knowledge of Rifling, besides Nationalism.) This unit will belong to the foreign power with the dominant culture in the square in question, but will function as the Privateer unit of Civ 3 fame and have no flag or other hint of allegiance. Your rival can now use this free unit (no support is required neither) to bully you (or any other civilization) without causing a state of war between your nations.

The point being: You should need to occupy newly acquired squares with military units, until a process of assimilation has taken place. Otherwise separatist fighters could sabotage your production, kill your workers or worse.

Request #5: FOREIGH FIGHTERS

You should be able to use your Spy units to fuel insurgencies in rival territory. This of course costs money (for military supplies and insurgent training) and can only be done in foreign map squares not occupied by any military units. The change of success could simply be the percentage of your own nationality in that square. (In the case of foreign squares with 100% friendly nationality, the success would be certain.) If the attempt were a failure it would be a cause for war.

The point being: You should be able to fuel large scale insurgencies on rival territory - if you have the money to pay for it. The AI should also want to harass their neighbors, or maybe prepare for an invasion by fueling an uprising inside rival territory, with Separatist units fortifying strategic terrain.

Request #6: INSURGENCY

Your cities can still rise up against you and your civilization, as before. If your rival has Nationalism this is called an Insurgency and your rival has the choice of supporting it or not. If your rival wants to keep the city, they'll have to declare war on you. In that case the rebelling city will be garrisoned by a Separatist unit (above) and will have to be reinforced if it's not going to fall back into your hands (in which case the insurgency is subdued, but still in riot and in risk of rebelling again).

The major difference to the riots of the original game is that a city acquired by Insurgency will have no cultural borders what so ever. The nation acquiring the city will have to both defend the city itself, and occupy the relevant map squares surrounding the it. Spy units should also both be able to instigate insurgencies and protect your nation from them. (The chance of success of should reflect the amount of the your culture within the city's populace.)

The point being: If a foreign city is in riot in your name, then you have the choice of simply rebuffing the insurgents, or both give them military and political support. The AI shouldn't also accept your cities (and therefore declaring war on you) without the capacity to reinforce and hold that city (and it's surrounding countryside).

Request #7: GLOBALIZATION

All this would be even more interesting if your culture could have a global spread. Therefore, after acquiring Radio (or maybe Mass Media) your culture no longer radiate from your cities and out toward your borders, and further into rival territory. Now your culture spread evenly within all civilizations with which you have open borders. The amount of culture generated globally is based on your total culture score.

The only way to confront a culture wrecking combination of The Eifel Tower, Rock'n Roll, Hollywood and Broadway, would be to close your borders and deflect the foreign influences from the eyes and ears of your citizens. Otherwise you might end up with an "cultural occupation", which allow the dominant global culture to fuel insurgencies inside your nation.

The point being: The modern world is a multicultural mix where ideas and ideals spread through media. A globally dominant culture can inspire it's following in other nations to become separatist or rebellious.

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Any takers?

/Baldyr

[Will9]

The idea that borders can't expand into civs with nationalism is terrible. Imagine invading a civ next to a civ (that doesn't have open boders with you) with nationalism and the their cities are near each others border. I see a terrible feature there.

About #7, it's in civ already. A cultural victory represts globalizing your culture.

[Baldyr]

I'm not sure I understand your example, but then again I'm not sure you understood my proposition. (Your own borders still grow after Nationalism, as long as your neighbor also doesn't have the advantage of Nationalism.) In any case I have to apologize for my bad English, it being my third language and all. Makes one wish there were a way to edit posts...

Anyhow, I'm sure I haven't thought of every possible situation that could happen with my request. But I also know that it would be a blast to get to play test the requested Nation State Mod. (I would also want to request a "Colonization Mod", but that'll have to be a later thread.)

/Baldyr

[Baldyr]

About #7, it's in civ already. A cultural victory represts globalizing your culture.

No, I don't agree. A cultural victory only mean that you have a number of massively cultured sites within your civilization/nation. Sure, your neighbors most likely feel and suffer under your cultural prowess, but your culture isn't "global" in any sense of the word. Thus, not in any way affecting civs/nations on the far side of the globe.

Therefore, I'll need to add this to my 7th request (above):

"The cultural victory condition should take into consideration your total culture score, not the culture of your individual cities. It should also be easier to win a cultural victory if your culture has gone global and thus is represented in most, if not all, nations of the world."

Exactly how all of this is implemented is of course up the person designing and coding the mod. I'm just coming up with ideas here.

/Baldyr

[Will9]

American culture isn't in Mexico, but tons of Mexicans want to be American. Culture dosen't have to be global for people know what the advantages of living somewhere else are.

[Baldyr]

Well, I'd say that American culture indeed is present everywhere in Mexican society. (I think all nations of the world share a common nominator in American culture, which is truly global. My own culture is largely American in this day and age. It's also the only reason I can speak and write in English.) Thus, the culture rating of the U.S. is enormous (world leading, even), especially compared to Mexico's.

With global culture (as in my proposition) there is enormous amounts of American Culture present in Mexico (and that's the reason why people want to live and work in your country), and that culture isn't just coming through Mexico's northern border (as in regular Civ 4), which would leave southern Mexico almost without any American influences at all. Rather, the images and promises of USA come in from everywhere and from all directions, via magazines, and movies, and advertisement, and satellites, and what not.

On the other hand, Mexican culture can also be found in the U.S. Just lock at all the Mexican foods and such, but that's almost a part that what's American nowadays. Going back to my request for National Borders, one could say that while the U.S. is enjoying a global culture (reaching all corners of the world, minus nations such as North Korea, with whom the U.S. doesn't have "open borders" with), poor Mexico still largely has to spread it's culture via immigrants (even illegal ones).

It's a good thing (for the Mexicans, at least) that Mexico has national borders (thanks the to invention of Nationalism), otherwise the borders of the U.S. would have reached the outskirts of Mexico City by now! (That would have been ok if we were talking about the Aztecs versus North American native tribes, but then we're talking about culture in the Stone Age.)

I'd like to offer up an example of my own. Take Canadian culture versus U.S. culture. Regardless of how much culture each nation state produces, the borders of these two nations will NOT change a single square inch due to just culture. The Canadians themselves might have well over 50% U.S. culture within their borders, but it would still require a political or a military decision to change the actual borderline.

With regular culture in Civ 4, the borders of Canada should be shrinking in an ever-greater pace, due to overwhelming cultural influences. But that's not happening, is it? There's just a whole host of examples of what I call National Borders and Global Culture all over the world (and in world history).

Well, that's just how I see things. You really don't have to agree on my views, since it doesn't make me wanna see a Nation State Mod any less. It's just unfortunate that I'm computer code alliterate myself, so I have to rely on the kindness of the Civ 4 Modding Community for assistance.

/Baldyr

[Will9]

I think I see a way your idea can work. When two neighbors get nationalism their become border fixed. If one of the nations gets invaded all of the land will be taken.

As for globalization maybe it could increase growth in the nations with more culture and decrease growth in others.

[timstam001]

What you should not try to do is to make that dominant culture nationbound. It is not the American culture that reaches around the world, but western culture. However, is it really western culture? I think our values are some of the main values a human being can have, which is why it gets accepted so widely around the world.

In my eyes every culture has two sides; a national side and a common side that it shares with it's "brother nations". I'm Dutch myself, and I wouldn't say my culture is partly American. My culture is Dutch, but it's based on the same western culture as the American culture. Our fundaments are the same (after all early Europe is an ancestor of the USA so to say, so who's culture is it really? It's not such an). The Americas, Europe and Asia more or less share the same cultural fundaments. Other kinds of such cultural fundaments can be found in the middle east or Africa, which are quite different.

[Thror78]

Sounds interesting.

How about that:

If there is a war anywhere, there are always refugees. If you have a Asylum-Agreement with a nation having refugees some will come your cities.
- Would take their religion with them ...
- Riots and protests against the war in their homeland

That makes your Agreement partner happy towards you but your own people get unhappy. Advantage on one hand, disadvantage on the other.

[Baldyr]

Well, I'm thinking of things such as clothing (t-shirt, jeans, baseball cap and sneakers are all American inventions, but function as a unisex uniform in most parts of the world), popular culture (the majority of all that is consumed in the West comes from the U.S., as does most new genres), popular foods (junk food, soda pop), and so forth. Sure, American culture is based on European culture, and American culture is a part of what is "Western Culture", but the American influences are predominant nowadays. (Pre WWII Sweden culture was largely influenced by German culture, but now it's more American that anything else. I would think the situation is similar in other European countries, even Russia.)

It's not an accident that all three of the modern day cultural wonders in Civ 4 are American in origin. (Namely Hollywood, Broadway and Rock'n Roll.)

/Baldyr

[Baldyr]

Thror78, I'm all for it!

What are you waiting for? Start modding!

/Baldyr

[Thror78]

Hello? Is it Xmas-time or am i missing something?
Ehm ok to tell the truth i don't know how

I thought you would be brave, jump in the cool water and present us some attached files at that we can have a look on

Cya l8r