Possible to create Doctors and Great Doctors?

[Optimizer]

There has been some talk about adding new specialists with corresponding Great People. There is already a mod with Officers and Great Officers.

I wonder whether specialists can be python-coded to add health to a city. In that case, it would be obvious to add Doctors. These would not just represent people with a medical doctor's degree, but all kinds of employees of the health and medical sector (which is a significant part of a developed society).

* New building: Clinic. Requires Philosophy. 100 shields. +1 health. Allows 1 doctor.
* Changed building: Hospital. Now gives only +1 health, but allows 2 doctors.
* New specialist: Doctor. +2 health, 3% chance of Great Doctor.
* New Great person: Great Doctor. Can settle as a Great Doctor Specialist (+3 health, 3 science), found a Medical Institute (Medic I for all units built in city & health bonus for certain resources), discover a Growth technology or help starting a Golden age.

List of Great Doctors: Hippocrates, Galenos, Avicenna, Rhazes, William Harvey, Florence Nightingale, Henri Dunant, Louis Pasteur, Alexander Fleming, Linus Pauling...

The health benefits from Doctors should be offset by increasing health penalties and decreasing bonuses. A Clinic and a Hospital, together with three Doctors, would give +8 health. This could be done by removing the resource bonuses from Granaries and Grocers (a total of +7 health), and adding them to the Medical Institute.

[OzzyKP]

Good idea.

[platypotamus]

Hmm, taking those bonuses from granary and grocer is going to have a pretty significant impact on the early game health limits of cities. It balances out by end game, but particularly on the higher difficulty level, it might kill city size in early games. Plus you're requiring a certain specialist configuration to get the health bonuses that are normally attached just to buildings (nearly essential buildings too), and that could make it difficult to make use of specialists for other purposes--not enough food to have both doctors and other specialists.

Finally, unless you create some sort of wonders that generate Great Doctor (or appropriate the GPP from some other wonders), I feel as if they won't be seen super often... unless of course you really do end up needing those doctor specialists in each city to keep health up, which would be kind of scary.

[Optimizer]

The ideas for health offset are just ideas - we could let the health bonus from Granaries remain, and remove the Supermarkets instead.

But for now, let us concentrate on searching for the python file which tells what the specialists can do for the city.

Maybe the Medical Institute can produce Pharmaceuticals (a health resource) instead of the health bonus.

[Blake]

I like this idea, altough do bear in mind how difficult Great Doctors would be to generate, making the "Medical Institute" a staple wouldn't be a good idea, Doctors should provide an alternative for those without good food resources.

The main reason I like this idea actually, is that it fullfills a niche - the OCC health problems, and to a lesser extent Globe Theatre super-cities in general.

Now the stats is tricky, this is because in an unhealthy city, a doctor with +2 health actually feeds himself, making him "free", I don't think this is good balance. Prehaps instead it should be +1 health and +2 science, for a dude half-feeding himself, that's still a pretty hefty bonus, it may only be balanced as +1 health +1 science, remember MOST of the strength of specialists comes from the Great People Points (compare Priest, +1 hammer, +1 coin).

Now I don't agree at all with a Medical Acadamy being Red Cross, neither due to the duplicity nor the military aspect. And also boosting health form resources - doesn't make sense.

Instead the Acadamy should have stats sometihng like this:
+1 Health, Allows 2 Doctors, Doctors add an additional +1 health.
Now we're talking, adds some powerful synergy. If you create all 3 doctors you get an extra +4 health for "free", the Acadamy is therfore actually feeding the 2 doctors it allows, so it's strong, but since you burn a Great Person for it, and can only have 1 per city...

Now for the Great Doctor Specialist, for simialler reasons to the standard doctor specialist his bonuses are too strong, there's a good reason a Great Merchant doesn't add +2 food. However I do think it would be okay to have something like +2 Health, +3 Science, mainly because the Great Doctors would be harder to generate.

[Optimizer]

Before the health-hacking is done, we could make the Doctor provide food instead.

[MattPilot]

Aren't Doctors covered under Scientists?

[Blake]

And now.

In python, happy hacking is easy. Health hacking however doesn't seem to be possible.

[Alex319]

I don't understand why anyone would want to create a Doctor.

Each population point = -2 food, -1 health, -1 happiness
The doctor provides +2 health
So the net change is -2 food, +1 health, -1 happiness. Even in the best case, the doctor leads to a net loss of food, and he doesn't produce anything else to compensate (except for the GPPs)

[Optimizer]

Well, the GPP's are not that bad. If you think the doctor is too weak, suggest other values.

I'm trying to implement the doctor right now.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Alex319
I don't understand why anyone would want to create a Doctor.

Each population point = -2 food, -1 health, -1 happiness
The doctor provides +2 health
So the net change is -2 food, +1 health, -1 happiness. Even in the best case, the doctor leads to a net loss of food, and he doesn't produce anything else to compensate (except for the GPPs)

By the same logic, why would anyone create a priest in place of working a desert hill on a river?

What you have to realise is ALL specialists in Civ4 are VERY WEAK, with the exception of Pyramids Representation, which makes them better than some thing. The ONLY reason to create specialists is the great people points, or due to a lack of workable land, or too much food (too kill growth). All specialists are niche not staple, the same should be true of doctors.

[JDexter]

Maybe give doctor specialists +1 to trade if you find the bonus too low, after all there's a lot of jobs and industry around health care.

Please make one Great Doctor Hildegard von Bingen for Germany, thanks.

[Optimizer]

I made the new specialists view properly by using CvMainInterface.py from the Great General mod. The file must be changed to allow new specialists.

This is my current setup:
* Doctor: +2 food, +2 research, chance for a Great Doctor.
* Great Doctor: Can discover a Growth tech, build a Medical Institute or settle to provide +3 food and +3 research.

* New building - Medical Institute: +5 health, can only be built by Great Doctors.
* New building - Clinic: Available with Philosophy, +2 health, allows 2 Doctors.
* Hospital allows 2 Doctors.
* Hanging Gardens, Red Cross and Statue of Liberty raise the birth rate of Great Doctors.
* Health bonuses from Grocer moved to Supermarket to offset health bonus from Clinics and Medical Institutes.

[Optimizer]

Maybe we should drop the "ordinary" doctors alltogether, and just make Clinics and Hospitals give a chance for Great Doctors.

[Zuul]

Would be cool if the great doctor could give armies extra health generation (more than medic 2 promotion), and/or maybe a extra healing one unit per turn (something not too unballancing).