Israel Mod Discussion

[gdijedi7]

If Korea is added, as some people have suggested, Israel should be too.
David definetly, although, maybe he should favor theocracy? Or maybe that would be Moses, except that he is a Great Prophet, so perhaps Joshua?
Soloman possibly.
Unique unit, Merkava, or IDF infantry. Air Force comes mainly from USA I think, but perhaps a national bonus to aircraft.
Israel should be predisposed to get along with America.

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by LzPrst

also, another thing that firaxis seems to have ignored effectively is the jewish religion itself, yes it is monotheistic, but it is also exclusive, only jews can be jews... by that I mean only people of jewish descent may claim to be part of the jewish religion.

Didn't Miles Davis convert to Judaism? I know that people CAN convert to Judaism - although it is supposedly quite rigorous.

[The keeper]

I have heard a theory that the enslaved Jews built the pyramids under the Egyptian whip. In the bible, they were making bricks - and doing hard physical labor.



meh - something to think about.

[QuantumPion]

Israel = philosophical + industrious.

[JackRudd]

Originally posted by QuantumPion
Israel = philosophical + industrious.

A trait combo is associated with a leader, not a tribe. Why particularly does Israel need the munchkin trait combo, anyway?

[GeoModder]

Didn't you know? They're considered the best...

[Xineoph]

It doesn't. Another reason why they should fix the traits, so they are equal regardless of what the 2 leader traits are.

I would like to see Civilization traits like what was seen in Civ 3.

[JackRudd]

Originally posted by Xineoph
It doesn't. Another reason why they should fix the traits, so they are equal regardless of what the 2 leader traits are.

It's very difficult to do - with eight traits, you get 28 potential trait combinations, and trying to equalize all 28 is going to eat up a lot of development time. It makes more sense to try to make them equal on the level of the individual traits, and not put in any combinations that have an overpowered synergy, which is what they did with Ind/Phi.

(There's also the problem that the value of a trait is not independent of your starting position; Financial is a brilliant trait if you're on a riverside coast, and an uninspiring one if you're in the middle of a landlocked forest.)

[MrMetternich]

Re: Israel Mod Discussion

Originally posted by Xineoph
Golda Meir (Spiritual, Philosophical) favors Pacifism

That would be Golda "Operation Wrath of God" Meir?

Pacifism seems an odd choice.

[xdreadyx]

David - Aggressive/Expansive + Spiritual
Salomon - Philosophical + Creative

UU - Slinger

Looking at times past, and for what people of Jewish and or Hebrew faith/descent are reknown nowadays, are their many "Great People", whether that be in the scientific or financial arena. They are always aligned with Judaism. So the question remains if one should choose the traits by the Leader or the very nature of the people.

At the top my choices for the leaders. Below is self explanatory.

Going by the nature of the Israeli Nation:
Aggressive+Expansive -
Organized Religion, Police State

Going by the nature of the Hebrew people:
Philosophical +Spiritual
Theocracy, Hereditary Rule

Going by the nature of the Jewish people:
Financial+Philosophical
Free Market, Caste System

Should they be in the game? Yeah, why not?

Are they a "nation" like any other, whatever that means, definitely not. Askhs and Sephs do "look" very different, ones being okzidental and the others oriental. But they are a tribe like any other. So add em to the game. Or just rename the Arabs to "Semites" add one Hebrew Leader, et voila. Just need to fix up a few city names and there you go.

Pacifism would ONLY fit Salomon.

[Tau]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Didn't you know? They're considered the best...

I know, it's weird. Every time someone brings up Israel on a Civ forum, half of the posters insist on making it munchkin-tastic in a mod.

There's really a simple reason why so many remarkable people have been Jews in our world. Because many normal trades were restricted to them in medieval Europe, a disproportionate number of them worked in business and science. Although the special laws were repealed over time, it left a lasting effect.
Biblical Israel shouldn't get the Great Person bonus.

(and btw, there's no real proof of the Temple of Solomon even existing)

[devincutler]

First regarding Judaism's exclusivity, while Judaism doesn't evangelize, it does welcome converts. They just cannot be asked to join. The decision has to be entirely theirs. For Civ purposes, yes that means having Jewish religion pop up across the globe may seem wrong, unless you think of a city gaining Judaism not so much converting its people to the religion, but rather that a large group of Jews have emigrated to that city and multiplied and prospered so much that they have influenced the city to a great extent.

If you take that view, that Judaism in a city in Civ means an established Jewish population, then it makes no sense to also have a Jewish Civ. In essence, all Jews in Civ are diaspora'd.

Second, while the previous poster is correct to some extent that Jews benefited by being able to undertake occupations forbidden to their host cultures (i.e. Christianity and Islam), it is also a fact that Judaism as a culture values cerebral and intellectual attributes over physical accomplishment. This doesn't mean Jews are inherently smarter, but it does mean Jewish children are greatly encouraged from a young age to be studious and engage in intellectual pursuits.

And for full disclosure, I am Jewish.

Devin

[LzPrst]

oy veh!

[Dry]

Originally posted by Xineoph
Leaders:

David (Spiritual, Expansive) favors Hereditary Rule
Solomon (Spiritual, Creative) favors Organized Religion
David Ben-Gurion (Spiritual, Industrial) favors Universal Suffrage
Golda Meir (Spiritual, Philosophical) favors Pacifism

I'm not sure Spiritual should be the common trait of jewish leaders.
If I look at jewish people throughout the ages, as LzPrst said: the jewish people have been one of the most influential ethnic groups in western civilization, especially if one looks at the influence vs numbers ratio.
So I think, in game terms, it is Philosophical that should best describe jews.
Just look at how many 'Great People' they produced.

So, if I keep Philosophical as common traits and add each leader's flavor, I'd say:
- David: iirc, he was second king of Israel, Saul, first one, was jaleous of his victories. He was a great general, so the extra promotions on units is what suits him best. So Aggressive .
- Solomon: Golden age of Israel. Richest king of his time. We already have Philosophical for the wisdom, I'd add Financial for the wealth.
- Ben-Gurion: More difficult. Industrious?... well in game terms, it means more Wonders... what wonders have Israel build during his time? Israel itself? Modern 'Hanging Gardens'? Well, could be. Or he could be expansive: made the desert flourish, extra health, cheap granaries. I'd chose Expansive.
- Golda Meir: Another difficult one. Spiritual? Did she prevent anarchy? Creative? Did she spread Israel's culture? Financial? Organized? Well, not easy to chose. She did a lot on diplomatic level to make friends. During her time Israel was, with no doubts, Internationally perceived as the good guy. I'd chose Creative for some kind of 'culture'.

[JackRudd]

In other words:

David = Alexander
Solomon = Elizabeth I
Ben-Gurion = Peter
Golda Meir = Frederick