Israel Mod Discussion

[Xineoph]

Well this will be a discussion on everything that we need.

Cities aren't a problem...

So, here are the current suggestions.

Leaders:

David (Spiritual, Expansive) favors Hereditary Rule
Solomon (Spiritual, Creative) favors Organized Religion
David Ben-Gurion (Spiritual, Industrial) favors Universal Suffrage
Golda Meir (Spiritual, Philosophical) favors Pacifism

UU- Mossad, Merkava, Maccabee.

Starting Techs- Mysticism, Mining

Flag- White, with Menorah emblem.

So...what are your suggestions? What should the UU be? What should the 2 leaders be? Traits? Favored civic? Flag?

Discuss here! =D

I was originally only on Civfanatics...but i figure 2 Civ forums are better then 1. =)

[LzPrst]

I find it strange indeed that firaxis has put in the jewish religion, but not the jewish people\civilization...

the jewish people have been one of the most influential ethnic groups in western civilization, especially if one looks at the influence vs numbers ratio.

also, another thing that firaxis seems to have ignored effectively is the jewish religion itself, yes it is monotheistic, but it is also exclusive, only jews can be jews... by that I mean only people of jewish descent may claim to be part of the jewish religion. of course one could theoretically say that, if this or that judaism might be a missionizing religion like christianity or islam, but it doesnt ring well with a history student which I am.

of course it just might not be politically viable. whenever germany attacked israel someone would cry "harassment", "nazi" or "anti-semite!"...

[Ekmek]

you are right about the exclusiveness of judaism. maybe we could mod it so they cant make missionaries but their buildings provide other bonuses like in wealth an influence or build diaspora migrants to spread the ethnic group tother civs

[LordShiva]

FYI Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism don't go around converting others either, so you're not alone. It's a gameplay thing, not a realism thing.

[Ekmek]

true...but IIRC bhuddism did expand rapidly so it had a missionary like mvmt early (how else did it go from an Indian religion to a chinese/east asian one) Confucianism spread via iinfluence from china IIRC. not sure about hinduism. either way its something worth modding

[Xineoph]

It's true not all religions have missionaries.

I know Christianity and Islam do.

Judaism does not...and in fact frowns upon people that want to join our religion.

I can't speak for the Eastern Religions, but i am sure, when India & China, were off conquering lands, they probably did spread their faith via force. Or encouragement...by, not taxing you heavily. ;p

Well we could, removed Judaism as a religion and Zoarasterism (sp?), since it was also a popular choice.

And after all we're only called Jew's based off one tribe Judah. Judah & Benjamin are the only known tribes to have survived from Babylon and Assyrian invasions.

Be glad we weren't called Bengay or something.

In either case....before we received the Torah from Mt. Sinai, prostelyzing was allowed.

Only thing was...we were only prostelyzing that only 1 god exists...the god...G-d.

But i agree that we can't play some favortism...well actually we can, we have to think of balanced bonuses for each religion.

Example. Judaism cannot build missionaries, and can only spread their religion...i guess via culture.

Bonuses- Health/Science Boost- Jew's were known for being clean...and when we didn;t have the plague, due to the fact we wash our hands alot. , they called us witches. O.o

Science...i guess that is more to do, that somewhere in the bible i forget where, G-d asks us, to help mankind through progress or something along those lines.

[thesandtiger]

Judaism is not an evangelizing religion - they do not seek out converts. In fact, those wishing to convert are snubbed, and must ask on (I believe) 3 seperate occasions. In short, one has to REALLY want to convert, and work for it.

Many sects of Buddhism are similar - a petitioner must stay for 3 days and nights outside of a monastery without any encouragement (in fact, with quite a bit of discouragement) before they are admitted.

Some sects of Buddhism do, however, evangelize - these are mostly the "Westernized" ones. I live in Chicago, and I have been frequently approached in the past by people affiliated with several different Buddhist temples.

From a game standpoint, however, it makes sense to make all religions essentially the same - they all have missionaries, they all yield identical benefits - and are just another layer adding to the complexity. If religions were different, and were given some kind of historically accurate bonuses, you would see an outrageous amount of protest - to the point where the fallout from it wouldn't be worthwhile. Making religion a generic trait is the safest move.

That said, I really would like to see some mods that have religions differentiated. Judaism might give a research bonus, defense against conversion/cultural stuff. Christianity might give an expansion bonus, and possibly some economic benefits. Islam could give expansion and productivity bonuses, and so on - bonuses that are based on the fundamentals of the faith.

[matrix089]

I think that's the kind of discussion Sid Meyer wanted to prevent.

Just think of the religions in the game in terms of economic directions. Nothing less, nothing more.

Beside that I like the idea of another tribe called "Israel". Why not? They are a country like everybody else.

[LzPrst]

giving different civs different abilities is a veeeery touchy subject and I'm glad firaxis decided not to do it like that. however, modding it is of course another deal altogether. modders dont have to give a rats nether region about political correctness etc, but any "this religion gives this and this advantage" would be up for infinite amount of discussion (read: flaming).

my point was more or less this, judaism is a bad choice for civ4 since the actual religion does not at all fit the game mechanics. all the other religions that are included in the game can in the real world accept new members, judaism cant and wont.

hinduism i think is a little in the grey zone since you're born into a certain caste. outsiders dont fit into the system, but provided that the persons in question would stay in hinduistic society over time, maybe as much as several generations, and believe the theology, it would probably only be a matter of time before they were accepted as either part of a caste or as a new one.

the problem with leaving judaism out is that it is the basis for both christianity and islam so ignoring it altogether would be a little strange.

of course the "we dont accept new members" policy might be played out ingame, ie build no missionaries, never spread your religion to outsiders, and if it happens on its own consider them emigrated insiders....
only problem is, there doesnt seem to be any advantage in doing this whatsoever, rather on the contrary... I guess thats what mods are for.

one way to do it would be to add an option allowing the founder to exclusify (just made up a new word i think) its religion, giving certain bonuses and certain disadvantages.

for example, you're extra resistant to new religions, you cant build missionaries and your religion never spreads to other nations, but you get improved culture and possibly extra % bonuses on city defence that you already get from religion. the option should be open for all religions, then the problem would be solved. it would become merely an additional strategy using religion. (why doesnt firaxis give me a job ? )

another bonus could be that you instead of missionaries, you can send out emigrants, a combination of workers and missionaries. they can join enemy cities (up to an amount, say they can make up maximum 40% of the total population) and will give line of sight, send home revenue or similar. they might also create extra unhappiness in the given city if the percentage is above a certain number.

(for those political correct of you, take a flying leap of the mountain, this is a historical fact, jews have often created ethnic/religious tension wherever they are a large minority. from roman times to modern russia. whether this is their fault or not is to me completely uninteresting, fact is, its true.)

[Xineoph]

Well what do you expect? We do control the Freemasons...and they control the world! O_O

Plus we've got the best sterotypes....all rich and dominate the world. That's gotta count for something right?

[CarnalCanaan]

I like the idea of a "diaspora" system being put into civ but I think it ought to act on the nationality rather than the religious affiliation. The city screen comes with a "X% nationality" icon already. And it also comes with an algorithm that trends it upwards in favor of its current owner. Thus, I would assume that same algorithm could be made to trend downwards according to various factors.

Say, when a city is razed, it increases the chance that the surrounding cities' nationality mix will change. Trade routes would be another obvious trigger.

Apparently, though, the religious affiliation applies to the city itself, not the citizens living in it. Newcomers would assume the veil of the host population's faith - not altogether unhistorical.

Note: I think the original upward force should remain on that nationality mix.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by LzPrst
also, another thing that firaxis seems to have ignored effectively is the jewish religion itself, yes it is monotheistic, but it is also exclusive, only jews can be jews... by that I mean only people of jewish descent may claim to be part of the jewish religion. of course one could theoretically say that, if this or that judaism might be a missionizing religion like christianity or islam, but it doesnt ring well with a history student which I am.

This is true of modern Judiasm, but wasn't true of ancient Judiasm. Jews did prostelyze, and quite successfully too, in the pre-Christian era throughout the near-East. Jewish prostelization really ownly ended with the spread and dominance of Christianity, which made it unsafe an impractical for Jews to missionize.

There's even one example of Jews converting through force -- when the Maccabean King Yochanan Hycarnus conquered Edom (Idumea), he forcibly converted all the Edomites to Judiasm.

So it's not out of line for the game to have Jewish missionization.

Now if you want to talk about specific religious atributes, how about?

Jewish cities don't benefit from pig, clam resources.
Jewish cities lose 1 hammer for every 7 until Communism (Sabbath observance)
Jewish cities spawn partisians if conquered by non-Jewish civ (hundreds of years of Jewish religious revolts)
Jewish cities have a +25% chance of spawning a Great Person (disproportionate remarkable individuals amongst Jews)

Plenty of options, that I don't think would offend anyone.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Arnt we overlooking the Biggest issue here, the game mechanics alow you to choose ANY religion for your Civ and for ANY civ to found the "Holy City" of any particular religion. So for example the Incas could found Judism and the Isrealites could end up as Budests. How would such a contradictory senario be avoided?

[Xineoph]

Who knows...but i don't think Polytheism should be a precursor to Monotheism.

I think Mysticism should lead either to Polytheism or Monotheism.

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Arnt we overlooking the Biggest issue here, the game mechanics alow you to choose ANY religion for your Civ and for ANY civ to found the "Holy City" of any particular religion. So for example the Incas could found Judism and the Isrealites could end up as Budests. How would such a contradictory senario be avoided?

Or, um, the Arabs could found Judaism.

...