Israel Mod Discussion

[Andrew1999]

I was a bit surprised to see in my game the Germans as a center of Jewish culture. Didn't quite fit.

Advisor: Mein fuhrer, the Mongols are attacking!
Fuhrer: Oy vey!

You do get some strange scenarios, since some religions and tribes are so closely tied together you can't think of one without the other. Oh well. Maybe a mod where if the Arabs found a religion, it's automatically Islam (if available) regardless of the tech tree. The same could be done for other tribes.

[Sharule]

King David should be the leader, considering he is the most revered by Jews.
I have no problem with Israel being seperate from Judaism, after all, historical Israel had other paganistic religions. Especially the Northern Kigndom.
The special unit... hmm... Maybe a the IDF Ifantry. Acts like normal Ifantry, but can detect spies.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Andrew1999
I was a bit surprised to see in my game the Germans as a center of Jewish culture. Didn't quite fit.

Before WW2, Germany and Austria were centers of Jewish culture. They even occupied high positions in government.

[LzPrst]

Advisor: Mein fuhrer, the Mongols are attacking!
Fuhrer: Oy vey!

lol

there were lots of rumours that hitler had a jewish grandmother, maternal side. though it hasnt been proven he did obscure his origin to prevent investigation into it...

Regardless, I think we need to free our minds a little with this whole religion aspect. Civ4 is a GAME. it means nothing in the big picture of things. therefore, having the jews missionize like crazy, the arabs adopt hinduism and the americans islam is exactly the same as the egyptians conquering the mongols and the incas massacre the french. its a game with jumbled up "historical" content. lets just view it as a game with no strings attached. to make a mod where certain civs automatically become certain religions, for example arabs and mongols would get islam, european civs would get christianity, eastern civs would get eastern religions etc... will contribute to more racism and crusading ideologicalsim in the game. christian players would then never play the arabs and we'd get all ethnical and divise. btw who would get judaism then since israel is not in the game?

lets just forget about the whole thing and enjoy the GAME.

[Gully Foyle]

I think looking at the in-game missionaries as evangelists is incorrect. The missionaries in the game simply serve as a means of allowing the player to exercise some control over the spread of the religions their civ possesses.

So it's not out of character for there to be Jewish "missionaries," in the sense that one should just view them as Jewish emigrants who move to a new city. As they procreate, there's more of them, and thus the city's Jewish population expands from there. They need not be viewed literally as missionaries. The same holds for any of the game's other non-missionary style religions.

Many aspects of this game must necessarily be viewed as generalities, and the fact that the spread of your religion can be partly controlled through the production of "missionaries" is one of them.

That said, modding is great because it allows us history buffs to indulge our fetish for hyper-accuracy and detail, and thus I eagerly await the most detail-oriented mods possible.

[Martinus]

Judaism in game is not identical to Judaism in real life - it was just included as the most famous example of ancient world monotheism (alternatively they could have put in Zoroastrianism or the Cult of Akhenaton, but then people would be asking who the hell they were and accusing Firaxis of being antisemitic for ommitting Judaism).

As for the complaint about including Judaism as religion and not Israelites as a Civ, the world has heard about Israel because of Judaism and Christianity - if those religions weren't founded in Israel, it would have been just another obscure ancient civilization that didn't come even close to what Egyptians, Romans or Babylonians accomplised. Now, the Israeli nation gave the world many great people - but this is well represented by Great People you get, many of which are Israeli.

Now, I wouldn't mind seeing Israelites as a modded-in civ, possibly with Salomon as a leader.

[texasjohn]

Martinus wrote: "Now, I wouldn't mind seeing Israelites as a modded-in civ, possibly with Salomon as a leader."

Free skis for every man woman and child in your civ?

[Zappo]

Israel's unit should be something with their airforce. Just b/c they're known for having the best defensive airforce around.

[wilebill2]

Nothing like Americans as Jews, while you wait for Israel, which I agree ought to be in there, as it was in the first EE, and maybe the second one too, don't know.

Purely a chuckle, how would world history have turned out if Moses under divine inspiration had built a huge fleet of ships and sailed to the promised land, where the Jews would soon build their Holy City, Miami?

[1shmae1]

Originally posted by Martinus
Israel...would have been just another obscure ancient civilization that didn't come even close to what Egyptians, Romans or Babylonians accomplised.

Asside from building one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

[Lumpkin]

I'd like to see Israel in the game too. I vote for David or Solomon. I think they deserve the civilization status in spite of lacking a large empire. I think their culture has proved more influential than any other nation, thanks to spawning Christianity and Islam, and strong enough to survive centuries with no country of their own. If the short-lived and relatively small empires of Mali and the Aztecs get a place then why not Israel?

As for the Jewish missionary controversy... Don't forget the biblical story of Jonah and the whale. Jonah is commanded by God to preach to the city of Nineveh (the very populous capital of Israel's oppressor of the time) and tell them to repent before Him. I'm sure there are other Old Testament examples of Jews preaching to outsiders but I can't think of any now. So although overall I agree that the civ-missionary grates with the whole "Chosen People" thing I don't think spreading Judaism beyond Israel is completely antithetical to the religion.

The the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you" - Jonah 3:1-2

And the people of Ninveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them - Jonah 3:5

And should not I pity Ninveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle? - Jonah 4:11

There's no mention of the citizens of Ninevah actually becoming Jews, but it seems they did start believing and obeying the Jewish god.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by 1shmae1


Asside from building one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Uh. Which wonder would it be?

The Mausoleum at Halicarnassus - Greeks
The Colossus of Rhodes - Greeks
The Pyramid of Giza - Egyptians
The Hanging Gardens of Queen Semiramis in Babylon - Babylonians
The Temple of Arthemis in Ephesus - Greeks
The Statue of Zeus in Olympia - Greeks
The Lighthouse of Alexandria - Greeks/Egyptians

[1shmae1]

Originally posted by Martinus

Uh. Which wonder would it be?

The Mausoleum at Halicarnassus - Greeks
The Colossus of Rhodes - Greeks
The Pyramid of Giza - Egyptians
The Hanging Gardens of Queen Semiramis in Babylon - Babylonians
The Temple of Arthemis in Ephesus - Greeks
The Statue of Zeus in Olympia - Greeks
The Lighthouse of Alexandria - Greeks/Egyptians

I must admit to an error.

I'd always understood the Temple of Solomon to have been part of the canonical list of the seven wonders of the ancient world. It is not. At times in Western history, the temple has made the list, but it's always been a minority opinion.

[ahsingjai]

The Jewish people are were under the Roman empire or the ottaman empire. They hardly had any soverignity til modern times.

[Martinus]

Well, they did have sovereignty in ancient times, and their leaders are known enough - thanks to bible - to make an interesting civ to play, imo.

Personally, I would give the leaders slightly different traits, though.

David should favour Organized Religion and be Aggressive and Spiritual (to simulate the early biblical aspect of Israel).

Salomon should favour Hereditary Monarchy (while he did construct the temple of Salomon, he was pretty tolerant of other religions) and be Organized and Philosophical (to simulate both the aspect of Israel that espouses a legal tradition of Torah and gave the world a disproportionate number of great people).

Starting techs should be Mysticism (self-explanatory) and Hunting (to allow to get to Archery quickly - see below).

Special unit could be a Slinger (a special type of Archer, probably getting an extra first strike).