Ancient Mediteranean Colonization mod- We need it!

[Heraclitus]

Think about it.



Several Greek and Phoenician city states competing with each other and several unplayable civs. It would be great fun!


Further discussion of the Space mod is pointless until I get CivCol.... so lets talk about this idea.

[Krill]

That would be pretty cool

[conmcb25]

Looks interesting

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by conmcb25
Looks interesting

Ditto

[Heraclitus]

Ok which Civs should be the protagonists?
I'm thinking Greece and Phoenicia for sure, who else?


How should we handle the large powerfull civs (Mesopotamina civs, Egypt) that didn't colonize across the seas but where powerful deterrents to colonizing near their land and even endangered the homeland (Persia).
Super-strong natives or civs which can't found new cities?

What to do about the homelands?

[Impaler[WrG]]

I demand Olive Oil as one of the resources

P.S. Etruscans or would be appropriate, If you set the time frame a bit later Rome and Carthage would be appropriate with Greek, Phonetician (independent from Carthage) and Egyptians acting as the 'natives'. The game play focuses on the Roman/Carthage rivalry as each expands from its initial base of power trying to gain economic and military supremacy over the other. Swaying the minor powers to your side is key to both goals.

BTW your going to have some major re-designing to do with regards to ware to sell things, theirs no 'Europe' to sail too and recruit from. I guess you could allow trading only between the existing cities on the map buy you will need to add code that destroys Yields (currently the only way to destroy yield is to sell to Europe or sink a ship its on).

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]

BTW your going to have some major re-designing to do with regards to ware to sell things, theirs no 'Europe' to sail too and recruit from. I guess you could allow trading only between the existing cities on the map buy you will need to add code that destroys Yields (currently the only way to destroy yield is to sell to Europe or sink a ship its on).

What if the mod would be set in an earlier period and only in the Western Mediteranean?

Sail to Europe = Sail to Greece/Phoenicia
Natives could be the various Celtic/Barbarian/Numidian tribes

Also Rome would replace the King as the ever more annoying factor. At the begining you would have lots of splintered Latin "Natives" in Italy, eventually a state would form centered in Rome (via an event).

They would demand ever more of you and they would spread.... if you came close to conquering Rome an event would trigger that would give you "independence" Rome would then "recall" its legions from overseas* to attack your homeland.

Needless to say this models what actually happened to Carthage.
Colony > Regional power > got into conflict with Rome > sent an army to attack Rome > Rome attacked its homeland forcing Carthage to withdraw its army

If the Greeks would have been the bigger colonizers in the West Med they would have probably followed the same progression.

Your goal is to succeed where Carthage failed.

Link to wiki article on ancient colonization




*(we'll just quietly ignore that historically Rome first conquered the west Mediterranean, also we'll make the "Roman natives" very strong, that way they will probably have a big part of the West Med already, making their mysterious acquisitive of an army in the east less suspicious)

[Heraclitus]

Resources in Ancient Colonization

Don't see a need to change either of these:
-Food (replace corn with grain )
-Horses

Four raw materials are typical for the New World. They will initially generate a good income, but prices will inevitably drop. These goods are Sugar, which is best cultivated on Savannah tiles, Tobacco, best cultivated on Grassland, Cotton, which is most abundant on Prairie tiles, and Furs, which are available on all forested tiles, but most abundantly on Boreal Forest and Mixed Forest tiles.

These four materials can be used to produce corresponding luxury goods, which will fetch much higher prices in Europe. In a distillery, Rum is produced from Sugar. Tobacco is used to make Cigars in the Tobacconist’s House. The Weaver weaves Cloth from Cotton in his house, and the Fur Trader turns Furs into Coats in his house.

We now have to figure out what to do with the above.

Initially, the resource which fetches the highest prices in Europe is Silver, which can be mined in Hills and Mountains. As prices drop, Silver will become less and less useful, however. On the other hand, Hills and Mountains also produce Ore, which is not in great demand in Europe, but which can be refined to produce Tools in the Blacksmith’s House. Tools are required for clearing forests and plowing fields, as well as for constructing advanced buildings and units. Furthermore, Muskets can be produced from Tools in the Armory.

Lumber also fetches poor prices in Europe, but can be used to produce Hammers in the Carpenter’s House. Hammers are required for constructing all buildings, as well as naval units and Wagon Trains. Hammers are “abstract” goods that can neither be transported nor traded. They represent the work required to finish a building rather than some tangible material.

Change Muskets to Quality Iron weapons or just Iron Weapons. The Iron age in Europe lasted from 1000 BC to 400 AD. The Greek city-states began establishing colonies around 800 BC.

Also, to be a bit more historical, we could make an events that gives certain "Natives" Iron weapons later on at the proper dates this is especially true of the Romans.

I think the rest can stay as it is, except maybe make Lumber a reasonable export later in the game (not too unbalancing since other exports are more lucrative by then), to simulate the shortage of Lumber in mainland Greece.


PS Should Ancient Colonization be the name or should we find a better sounding name, something from a Greek myth maybe?

Overall this seem like a much simpler project than space colonization.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
I demand Olive Oil as one of the resources

Olives > Olive oil
Grapes > Wine

I think Olives can prosper on a bit more arid terrain than Grapes. So lets make

Olives grow on Savannah
Grapes grow on either Grassland or Prairie

I don't know abut grapes being exported in RL ancient med, raisins anyone? If they werent' we can just reduce their price and increase the price of wine.

Maybe Linen (Flax) or some other more prevalent Western Med Textile could be a replacement for Cotton (cloth).




To do: Rename terrain so it sounds like it fits the Mediterranean.

Fur: I assume they where traded in ancient times am I correct?

Trade Goods: No need to change this, from Phoenician Glass to Chinese Silk there are many luxury items to be had from the eastern Med and beyond.

Also, slavery was important but I suggest we keep it simple.

Lets simply rename Indenture servants (they where slaves of a kind in any case) into Slaves. It fits the bill perfectly.

Also native converts should be called Barbarian Slaves.

[Heraclitus]

Petty criminals could perhaps be renamed into something that reflects how political outcasts often left their home cities to live in the colonies after they lost civil wars or where ostracized.

The two other “abstract” goods are Liberty Bells, which are produced in the Town Hall, and Crosses, which are generated by the Church. They represent the concepts of liberty and of religious freedom. Liberty Bells are needed to convince your colonists of your policies, and to elect Founding Fathers to the Continental Congress, whereas Crosses attract further colonists.

Both the Greeks and the Carthaginians had some kind of assembley, can someone dig up their names so it can replace the Continental Congress?

Finding the ancient equivalent of founding fathers is trivial.

Liberty bells = something antceint to represent basically the same thing


Crosses = something that represents Polytheistic piety
Ankhs? Lightning bolts?




It is very fortunate that there are so many similarities between ancient med colonization and that of the New World.



PS:
Once this mod is done and people get more experience we could make a late full med mod with the Roman Senate being the "king", and the Roman colonies being like the factions in Rome Total War, the non-Roman factions would need to fight the senate too.

Or a full Mediterranean Greek/Phoenician colonization mod.

The reason I'm putting this off for a later mod is because having the "homeland" on the main map might be tricky.

[Heraclitus]

Also the West Med mod could also have an extra Black Sea map.

[Thinksalot]

Dude, awesome idea.

Here's some historical background for any modders interested in the project.

There were two main colonizers at the time and if one was interested in historical accuracy, then I strongly suggest that it remain between the two. (Greece and Phoenicia)...

Phoenicia:

Phoenician colonies were almost exclusively devoted to trade! They remained very small and compact. Population did not expand to city-like levels. They were dependent on the motherland for food and supplies. But they were spread all over the palce, with a colony every 30 miles.

However, one might ask "Well, if they were small and exclusively devoted to trade, then how to you explain Carthage?" Ahh easy answer. Carthage became isolated from Phoenicia and was forced to survive on it's own (I embrassingly forgot the region) so Carthage eventually adopted Punic hegemony over the region. Otherwise, Carthage was just a small little regular colony like the rest of them.

So game wise, Phoenicia= Lots of little cities spread all over the map.

Greece:

The primary reason for Greek colonization is unknown. Population overcrowding or trade could have been the primary reason, but it is likely both causes. They built large, expansive cities with large tracts of land, they were the opposite of Phoenicia.

The Greeks were here to stay and the Phoenicians were here to profit.

Greek colonies eventually formed their own polis and becamse City-state in themselves.

Natives:

The Greeks and the Phoenicians bring some degree of displacement of natives. However, alot of these areas weren't dnesly settled. The attitude of the colonists were a sense of disdain and superioty (sound familiar?). There was a cultural exchange of influence on both sides (Native and colonists), which brought an exchange on the Eastern and Western world. For instance, Gaulic statues became realistic looking from Greek influence.

Some natives recommended.

Numidians, agricultural desert peope.
Mauri, agricultural desert people.
Pastoral tribes of North Africa, your on your own there as I don't have any notes on them.
Ligures (Celtic people of southern France). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures if you want to use various tribes in detail
Etruscans (as an established comp civilization rather then a native power).

I'll post about Gameplay later but I gtg for now.

[Heraclitus]

I myself am rather familiar with Greek history, I am planning on makin it primarily about Phonecia and Greece.
You are neglecting that the Greeks distinguished among two types of colonies apoikiai and emporia, the first where city states like the one you describe the second where more like the Phoenician ones.


The real question is would each be one civ, or should we be realistic with several Greek and Phoenician cities competing with each other?

Etruscans & Romans are civilized, but how to make them non-expanisve civs? Wait.... Etruscan could lack the ability to build ships and Rome could be an Etruscan city that becomes a civ by event around the time of the formation of the real Roman Republic, it then gets big bonuses and is a computer controlled expansive civ. The expedition the Romans recall to raid your homeland will depend not only on your strength but on the strength of Rome.

This means going directly for Rome will be tricky, so you may need a few victories in a few Punic wars before risking the full attention of Rome.



Now what land should the main map cover? This is my proposal please modify it. Place where you think the tribes should be at the game's start, ignore the Greek & Phoenician cities I left them in to make the map look better. I think the western Balkan peninsula should be there as should a part of Greece, since Western Greece was always a more isolated region.

[Thinksalot]

First off, I'm not an expert of the ancient colonization of the mediterranian. I just happen to know a professor who is and took his class

I just want to help and willing to provide an opinion about things.

I think that map frame is as perfect as it's going to get!

The rise of Rome, however, is not necessarily the same time period (unless you wanted it to be, it's up to you). The dominance of the Latin City states didn't happen until 264 BCE, before it could contend as a major power like Greece. By then Phoenicia has been conquered so many times that basically the game would take over as YOU being the motherland. Which from reading the forum is what you want.

As the current scenario, Latin speaking tribes were mainly Barbarians that only developed through the help of the Etruscans. The Etruscans themselves are the power to contend with, but even they only established dominance at 650 BCE.

To compare the time frames, Wikipedia states that Phoenician colonization occurred between 1550 BC and 300 BC. The Phoenicians themselves developed significantly Carthage when Cyrus the Great took them over (again according to wikipedia).

The resources are a bit tricky to do, but if it's possible, would be very awesome. The main motivation of Phoenician colonization was Metals, such as Copper, Tin, and Silver. Now, obviously Copper and Tin make bronze, so as an idea, wouldn't it be possible to have cities turn Copper and Tin into Bronze as a finished resource? I have no clue if it's realistic (as I would imagine they would smelt the stuff in the homeland), but I think it would be distinctive to have two resources smelting one resource.

The Phoenicians themselves were known for their purple dyes and wood, maybe Purple Dye could be a resource in itself as it could have grown across the mediterrainian? Good Lumber should be scarce. It has been known that these purple dyes have spread across the Mediterranian, they were essential, but do you want them in there? I have no modding skills, so other then blabbing on the forums there isn't much I can do. They were worth their weight in silver and the cash crop of the period.

Well, I guess if I had to choose the resources I would choose these. I've only played the original colonization and haven't had the time to play the new one, so pardon me if I am missing "important old ones"

Right now, I'm just writing down the resources that I've browsed on the Web as important, disregarding elimination. Choose the ones you like.

Also keep in mind that I'm looking at the prespective of the Phoenicians.

Food
Olives
Olive Oil
Tin
Copper
Bronze
Lumber
Iron
Horses
Snails (The source of Purple Dye)
Dyes
Silver
Trade Goods (A resource that has no prequistes? Think of it as the "everything else" category that makes money on it's own. This is Pottery and crafts)
Hammers (Made by Lumber?)
Tools (Made by Bronze?)
Weapons (Made by Iron?)

Other resources to choose

Ivory
Gold
Jewelry
Lead
Wine??? (I don't know if it was, essential important, but popular demand might force it in there.)
And plenty of others.

I have an idea of Liberty Bells and Religion, but I have work to do and stuff.

Good luck with the Mod, I'll help periodically if you need any ideas.

[Thinksalot]

Oh, I forgot. I'll ask the professor what the most important resources in the Mediterranian and maybe we could use his list as a guide.