A Space colonization mod?

[snoopy369]

So, Maniac, would you be interested in helping with this given your knowledge on Planetfall?

It's conceivable that some of the Planetfall resources could be utilized (if you all permit it), actually... obviously Ken or Dale would be the only ones to be able to confirm this, but I have to assume some compatibility...

[Maniac]

Originally posted by snoopy369
So, Maniac, would you be interested in helping with this given your knowledge on Planetfall?

Sorry, but Planetfall is keeping me busy enough. Besides, Colonization will be too graphically intensive to run on my computer. Another game I won't be able to buy...

Personally I would actually prefer that people with C++ or graphical skills and an interest in sci fi would help already existing projects instead of dreaming of new projects, most of which never come to pass.

Anyway, one thing I've learned, or rather I've seen reconfirmed, with Planetfall is that the only way a project can become a reality if there's one core person who's willing and able to continue the project without anyone else's help.
And Heraclitus AFAIK has no modding skills at the moment.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I'd really recommend you think twice if you really want to commit to this thing, before possibly wasting lots of your and other people's energy.

[GeoModder]

I'd be interested in joining a space colonization mod team. But besides xml tinkering and offering links to existing art which may be converted for use in the Colonization engine there's not much I can do (on the practical part I mean).

From what I hear from Maniac and Snoopy, it seems a usual planetary/lunar mapscript and/or a more or less Final Frontier graphics crossover have the best change for looking good.

Originally posted by Maniac
...and GeoModder has abandoned a "Song of the Moon" mod.

Hard to continue if the C++ coder pops up twice, does some things which work only half, and then disappears.
Actually, the Col engine might be way better suited for a Song of the Moon-type mod.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Hard to continue if the C++ coder pops up twice, does some things which work only half, and then disappears.

Sounds similar to the first year of Planetfall's history.

Which is why I'd really recommend, don't start on this unless you can do everything yourself if needed. I know the rage is all about "team projects" these days in civ modding, but in the end, the only person you can always rely upon is yourself.

[GeoModder]

That's why I'd like a mostly graph-over first before too many special stuff comes in. A base so to speak.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Is there actually interest in developing this mod for real (as opposed to blueskying about it)? If so, we can set up a subforum for it. We'd need some resources:
* Programmer - I can do SOME of this, but probably not all that is needed, in the c++ particularly
* Artist
* Someone with the actual game
* Designers (everyone is involved in this, to some extent)
* Testers (in addition to the developers)

We'd also need to know to what degree, if any, Impaler would be permitted/willing/able to help given his Firaxis commitment. (And if Firaxis had any interest in making this an officialish mod with some official support, similar to what happened at the start of Civ4 with Dale/Locutus/Isak, though they are much more talented developers than any of us I suspect, so I'd assume that is a no barring something changing).

So ... who's doing what?

There is interest! We are just talking about what to do before we start modding. After all the game hasn't come out yet.

I can do XML and testing and I'll think you'll agree I'm filled with game mechanics ideas.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Maniac


Personally I would be very surprised if it actually happened...

But since we're blueskying...

Personally I don't think a space colonization story per se needs to assume that all Earth powers have become undemocratic to explain a willingness to secede and claim independence. It seems to me that people simply feeling they no longer share a common identity with the motherland is sufficient reason. And that's a natural evolution from the moment some people start being born in space instead of on Earth. Plus you can also think of all sorts of economic reasons. The space colonizers don't profit enough of the resource extraction or something.

Also, Heraclitus, I consider your future view of the European Union unrealistic. In order to assume there can be a European space colonizer, there needs to be a strong European political entity. I doubt this could arise in an unstable world with nuclear wars and all that. I also doubt the European Union would survive its member states becoming undemocratic.

In addition, to assume a willingness of a European organization consisting of many member states to actually suppress any revolts, I think one needs to suppose nationalistic feelings among the Earthbound Europeans, a shared identity. I doubt this can happen in the next couple generations if more and more states join the Union, and if the current Eurosceptic states remain in.

Therefore I think the most plausible scenario would be to assume that by the time of the game, the European Union has become little more than a free trade zone. However in reaction to this, several member states went ahead and formed their own stronger union, the European Federation, of which the citizens over time do form a certain common identity. Such a Federation would most likely include France, Germany, Italy and Spain, thus still providing enough economic weight to make space colonization plausible. It should not include Eurosceptic states such as the UK, Poland, Turkey or Czechia though.

I thought we agreed to drop the back story for now?

I simply took the largest space spenders and projected them into the future.


Also let me just point out a few things. Turkey is not an EU member and we can not know if it will. Euroscepticism as well as proeuropean feelings are not for permanent, a good example is Holland and France or even Ireland.


The EU would actually work much better if it became less democratic, the elites, even British elites, have always been very much in favor of the union. If the elites in an undemocratic fashion decided about everything, Europe would have a constitution (I hope you remember this ) and an army by now (there was talk of a common European army in the 50's as an alternative to rearming western germany, this was shot down by popular oposition in France).

Also the EU of my world is not much more undemocratic, the same goes for the US, I may just have harsher standards as to what is a democracy. To clear this up, let me just give an example I don't consider Italy today to be a democracy but a corporate republic, I don't consider Russia today a democracy but an Oligarchy. America is borderline.


Also what states do on the Earth is irelevant, sure the EU may still be a trade zone on Earth but in space its cooperating. To model the UK would be pointless since their space program is even smaller than Italy's they only have acces to space via ESA.


And in a world of nuclear warfare and Muslim unrests, I would actually expect a European identity to be stronger rather than weaker. And let me take your words "2 generations", 75 years dude, that is more than has passed since WW2! Look what has changed, war between European countries (proper) is unimaginable! Its been only since 1992 that we have a real European union, and there are already some people who feel more European as opposed to Austrian, German or Spanish. Even extreme right groups, the ones that should be against this are waaaay more concerned about Turks, Arabs and other illegals to rant about each other, sure they rant against Brussles but not against the idea of a European association.


Also what is this BS about such an identity being necessary for space military intervention? The Austro Hungarian empire was capable of such intervention and it was a patchwork of nationalities, the Holy Roman Empire was occasionally capable of this and it was a loose cooperation of states. Regardless, pure economic interest can make countries cooperate in such endeavors!


And lastly, truly democratic nations aren't like Russia is with Chechnya they let provinces seccede, they don't send an army. Look at Britain, how many nations are in the Commonwealth? All those nations where let go, they may not have been able to keep India but they sure as hell would have been able to keep a few if they wanted.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Maniac
Also, people have been trying to get cities to move for years without success. I don't think you'll be able to succeed now either. You should set less ambitious goals you can do on your own.

Actually I could do this on my own. If this mod was for civ4 it could be done in a month by me alone.

For col it depends how hard it is to convert Civ4 graphics resources for C4C.


You see this mod will be very basic, it will be a core mod for people to make other space mods (once they see how awesome this one is).


I know from the way Geomodder have been lobbying that he would immediately release a mod with a different back story and new factions.


Someone would release a mod that places this in the SMAC solar system in a time when factions are expanding off Planet. After all....





Someon else would release a Star Trek version, ect...

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Maniac

Personally I would actually prefer that people with C++ or graphical skills and an interest in sci fi would help already existing projects instead of dreaming of new projects, most of which never come to pass.

Oh come on dude. There is only soo much modding people can do by adding Russia, Norway, ect. or adding slavery and Africa. Sooner or later someone will make a space mod. Even if everyone looses interest the resources of this mod would provide a ready made resource for the next generation of Civ4Col mods.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by GeoModder
That's why I'd like a mostly graph-over first before too many special stuff comes in. A base so to speak.

That is precisely what I am proposing.

Phase One:

1. Change the sea graphics to space terrain.
2. Change the resource graphics and rename them, even if they don't make much sense
3. Change unit graphics
4. Change terrain graphics
5. Add the 4 playable factions with powers identical to the original col ones, change or remove natives
6. Change city graphics
7. Tweak Civilopedia, menu and music.
8. Change Great people and constitution options.

Optional
9. Add events & quests for flavor and tech advancement

And voila a playable & fun (if you haven't played col untill you where sick with it) space clone of col. A working space mod.

Phase two:
10. Ringworld mapscript.
11. Change the DLL so you can "sail to Europe" on any space plot

or

12. Change the script so it makes a thin strip of sail to Europe plots around the north & south pole.

Again the above is actually a quite good space mod.

Phase Three:

13. Add planets
14. Add specific script for moon map generation
15. Add a fantasy huge solar system map (with several planets open for colonization)

This is a practically done space mod.

Phase Four:
16. Make the mod's economics more interesting & realistic
17. Moving planets allowing for strategies regarding launch windows.
18. Add more civs that come in later in the game
19. Add UUs and UBs
20. Add second or even third leader to each civ.

Anything beyond this is Space Mod II

As you see no or very little C++ will be needed.

[Heraclitus]

BTW Does anyone have any ideas with regards to the name?

[GeoModder]

Song of the Moon?

Nah, Extraterrestrial Independence sounds better.

[tour86rocker]

I would love to see one based loosely onclassics like Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" or Bradbury's "The Martian Chronicles".

On the moon your colonist would dig out a warren and expand it or something, looking for ice and other resources. You'd transport goods to Earth by catapult and your economy would be in trouble if you didn't receive solid waste in return. Later you'd assemble a computer of a sufficient intelligence to ward off the Earth Authority.

On Mars you'd have native Martians to deal with, strange mysteries like SMAC, and very interesting random events patterned along the different short stories. House of Usher, explorers wandering into Martian insane asylum, angering martians by disrespecting their abandoned cities, Martians will part or all of Mars to you, etc. Supporters of an intrusive government start to muck up the works so you go to war with earth.

[orlanth]

Just came across this thread.. I'd be very interested to see a true interplanetary mod, either of Civ4 or Civ4Col - as you say this should seemingly be fairly achievable and realistic to do if you limit the first phase to a mainly graphical reskinning with land continents in a "sea" of space. With Civ4Col, retooling natives as alien species would be an even nicer twist.

I'd made some attempts at replacing Civ4 Coast/Ocean terrains with the space terrain dds graphics from Final Frontier, but only succeeded in making the beaches look like an oil spill so there's clearly more to that step than I thought. If an artist is able to replace ocean tiles with a reasonable space terrain, I would think some fitting unit and resource graphics could be easily co-opted from other mods (like Maniac's ) and you wouldn't be too far from a playable clone. Well let me know if there's still interest in getting a mod like this off the ground; I think the multiple land planets angle could be much more fun than abstract Final Frontier style systems, yet not much of a stretch to the existing engine if space=water.

[Heraclitus]

Just came across this thread.. I'd be very interested to see a true interplanetary mod, either of Civ4 or Civ4Col - as you say this should seemingly be fairly achievable and realistic to do if you limit the first phase to a mainly graphical reskinning with land continents in a "sea" of space. With Civ4Col, retooling natives as alien species would be an even nicer twist.

I'd made some attempts at replacing Civ4 Coast/Ocean terrains with the space terrain dds graphics from Final Frontier, but only succeeded in making the beaches look like an oil spill so there's clearly more to that step than I thought. If an artist is able to replace ocean tiles with a reasonable space terrain, I would think some fitting unit and resource graphics could be easily co-opted from other mods (like Maniac's ) and you wouldn't be too far from a playable clone. Well let me know if there's still interest in getting a mod like this off the ground; I think the multiple land planets angle could be much more fun than abstract Final Frontier style systems, yet not much of a stretch to the existing engine if space=water.

Your input on this is most welcome. The idea has been on hold for a long time, since it seemed people lost interest. The main problem was that I'm not a graphics guy, I can do XML and python(see people I've been busy ). If you'd like to work on this, I would love to collaborate. I suggest that we begin by "stealing" (full credits for everything we use and permission as much as possible) as much as we can of the wonderfull wrok so many people have done even if only as palceholder.


I think the problem with the space terrain may be how the Civ4 and CivCol engines treat titles. If I remember right CivCol has some advanced sea effects that make them look much better than Civ4BtS oceans. Maybe we should ask over at CFC if anyone knows how to deal with such difficulties. If that's not the issue then maybe we should ask the Star Wars mod(I think) guys, they seem to have used the FF space terrain in modding sea as space.

Also If anyone would like to recomend any good modding guides I'm all ears.