Space Kings?

[GePap]

One of the common iudeas in a lot of science fiction, both good and bad SciFi is the notion of some sort of feudal monarchic system being the government of human space in the future. Yet is this at all realistic? No, I don't mean realisitc in the sense of "is FTL travel realistic?". I mean, given what we know today of human society, does the notion of a spacefering society ruled by a feudal system make sense?

I say no. Personally, I think the basic societal needs of a space society (at a minimum, an indusrial and information revolutions) would create the sort of society in which an aistocracy would have little if any chance of coming into being, and the idea of making executive power based on bloodline absurd.

Anyone here think that a space monarchy is possible?

[Nubclear]

Copycat thread

[DRoseDARs]

3 were posted at 01:07:36am
1 was posted at 01:07:37am
Last one posted at 01:10:52am

I nominate this thread as the one that is spared. (Not a copycat thread, just funky server behaviour.)

To legitimize this one, here are the on-topic posts made in the other bastard duplicate threads:

Spiffor wrote:
Space monarchy could be possible, but would require several things:

- a ruler who has a high charisma or a high traditional legitimacy (looooong bloodline). His function would be to unite a probably loose confederation behind him. A united democracy would be likely to fight too many secessionist wars, whereas a king could avoid them, if he's recognized as a perfectly legitimate ruler by the population.

- dysfunctionments in a former space democracy (internal wars, safety issues), which will make the people glad to see a stable and firm monarchic power rise to power.

- either a good communication / transportation system should exist, or a wide autonomy should be given to planteray viceroys. In this case, the monarch would have to be wise enough not to demand too much to the individual planets.

- Of course, for any united political entity to exist, there must be a common enemy the people think they have to fight together.

Worthingtons wrote:
As Technology advances it becomes more posisble to control and oppress your people. As Capitalism develops specialisation on job basis becomes more possible.

So it's feasable that the American system could advance to such a point where it reverses, and by the space age we end up with a feudal system.

Azazel wrote:
Hardly so.

But it's great that you've mentioned FTL travel, because without it, and with long range space ships looking how they look by visionaries ( not SciFi writers ) today, a new society will probably spring on long voyages on mammoth spaceships. Cryo chambers will fill most of the traveling time, if they'll be created ( And I think they will, with some 85% certainty. I still remember that fricking unfreezing frog. ), but still, months or years on agregate of space travel with a group of a couple of thousands of people secluded from the rest of humanity can create some mighty amazing results.

[Worthingtons]

Why is this one so special, i mean it's only on 3 posts?

[VetLegion]

How much executive power are we talking about?

Certainly there would have to be some sort of meritocracy designed not to make the best and brightest the enemies of the regime but to instead integrate them into regime: Merit Lordships and such.

Space monarchy in the universe of Miles Vorkosigan does not sound unconvincing but social and political backgound are not explained in much detail so it is diffucult to say how plausible the thing is.

The Dune type monarchy is more unplausible to me, but not completely improbable.

[VetLegion]

wrong edit button

[Starchild]

pfff, we'd be lucky if the technologies that let us thrive in space even keep us recognisably human. Forget about having a recognisable form of government.

[JohnT]

I think that one of the reasons why feudal empires show up in space operas is because it is a handy device for an author who needs a few movers and shakers in their novel, a person who can say "do this" and this is done. Kingships fit the need rather nicely, unlike messy Democracies where people have to build coalitions and such.

I do think, however, that to build up an interstellar system of government, each of the individual planets would almost have to have a planetary government of some sort to send representatives to this Congress. Depending upon any interstellar Constitutions, it could very well be possible that some of the planets could develop into monarchies.

[Worthingtons]

Originally posted by VetLegion
wrong edit button

Surely you're taking the piss ?

[Sava]

I think it's more likely that some kind of corporate system will govern interplanetary travel... with some "board of directors" much like a Soviet polut bureau (spelling?) and some CEO who is basically a dictator. It will be an authoritarian system, but the democratic government (whose leaders are corporate scum) won't call it that.

[:) Smiley]

Government? I doubt that there would be any government of the normal sort in space, after all, wouldn't escaping governance be one of the primary reasons people eventually head out to other worlds?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Smiley
Government? I doubt that there would be any government of the normal sort in space, after all, wouldn't escaping governance be one of the primary reasons people eventually head out to other worlds?

It won't be like the Western Frontier of America's past. Anyone with a wagon could have ventured West. But with space, only governments and rich corporations will be able to afford to get into space. I doubt you will have people heading to a "New World" or whatnot. I'm sure most space travel will be either science, military, or industrial related.

[:) Smiley]

Perhaps at first only govt's and rich companies could do it, but the question is would they? Neither has and motivation to do it, as we're proven by the languishing of both national and commercial space programs today.

I could see religious groups or wealthy individuals doing it though as the costs drop with improved tech, and later on as costs drop it'll be individuals.

It'll sort of be like the colonizing of America. First you got government-backed exploration, then you got corporate ventures, then religious settlements, then individual migrations.

[Urban Ranger]

Why not?

It takes only a powerful admiral to make himself (or herself) ruler for life.

[GePap]

Originally posted by JohnT
I think that one of the reasons why feudal empires show up in space operas is because it is a handy device for an author who needs a few movers and shakers in their novel, a person who can say "do this" and this is done. Kingships fit the need rather nicely, unlike messy Democracies where people have to build coalitions and such.

I do think, however, that to build up an interstellar system of government, each of the individual planets would almost have to have a planetary government of some sort to send representatives to this Congress. Depending upon any interstellar Constitutions, it could very well be possible that some of the planets could develop into monarchies.

I certaily agree with the first paragraph. As for the second, I myself find it difficult to think how a space colony would turn out to be a feudal monarchyunless setting such a thing up was one of the aims of the colonists: after all, people would be coming from a place were popular politics would be common, and one would assume they would carry with them the institutions of their home along, and feudal monarchy would not be among them.

There is somehting else though, becuase another way to have a story were a few people can make all the decisions is a despotic government, or an absolute one (this differs in that while a single individual holds executive power and more, there is no such thing as an aristocracy, and power is not necessarily passed along by blood): but writers want a form of government seen as legitimate (notice how there are always good loyal subjects and servants) and a despotic system (which is certainly possible in the days of mass politics) makes such characters hard to believe, at least for the democratic mind.

interesting question: did SciFi writers of the communist block have such a "beneign" view of space monarchs? Most western scifi writers I have read have had some form of space monarch in one story or another, but the only communist block writer I ever read, Lem, has no space kings.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by GePap
the idea of making executive power based on bloodline absurd.

You mean like George Herbert Walker Bush, George W. Bush, and Jeb Bush? Yes, the whole thing is absurd.

[Proteus_MST]

In the Battletech-Universe everything semed to happen step by step, within 400 years.

First Terra colonized Worlds many Lightyears away by means of Specialized Jumpships and FTL-Drives which could Travel up to 30 Lightyears with one jump .
The Cores of FTL-Drives had to be reloaded after every jump by means of a very fragile Jump Sail, which meant that the Ships had to stay within a certain Distance of the Star, so the Sail wouldn´t be torn apart by the gravitational Forces and the Solar Wind, normally they chose a point in the Zenith or Nadir or the Solar System.
So the Jump Ships had to employ large Dropships, which attached to the Jump Ships, where transported by the Jump Ship to the System and then traveled within days or Weeks from the Jump Ship to the Planet and back again.

Because Reloading the Jump Ship Drivecores took a long time and also the Dropships had a long time to travel within the System, Contact to Earth became more and more sparse, especially among Colonies which were more than 30 lys distant from earth and therefore could only reched if the Jumpship made two or more jumps and reloaded its Drivecore once or more times in Systems which lay in between.
Often those Colonies developed more close ties to their respectiver Neighbours than to Terra and formed Aliances with them.

The Colonies also developed independent Power Structures, some by means of Elections, others just by making those people Leaders, who were military Leaders in the War for Independence, or had the most Influence or money on the Planet.

As more and more Colonies became settled and the Control of Terra over most Colonies more and more diminished finally many Colonies struggled for Independence, which lead to the first great War between Terra and the Colonies.
Terran Forces were to few and the Distances to big and so after some months of War Terra decided to keep Control of Colonies one Jump away (i.e. a Radius of 30 Lys) and completely shut off the Contact to all other Colonies which were more distant, even to those which were dependent on Terra, for example because they had no Water Supplies or the like and therefore didn´t like to become independent.

Afterwards the Bonds between the Worlds in the Alliances strneghtened, often larger Alliances were created by smaller Alliances uniting and Society slowly developed into a Feudal System.
Formerly elected Leaderpositions in the Alliances became Hereditary and finally a new Nobility was created. And, as later with the Hyperpulse Generator (HPG) a Form of FTL-Communication was developed, those Leaders were better able to govern those far distant Colonies than Terra had been in the distant past.

I can only guess, how realistic these Scenarios in Bettletech are. I think Colonies becoming independent from Earth and deceloping their own form of Government will be a very realistic Scenario, so I could imagine, that some Planets could also develope some kind of Feudal System at least on a planetary scale could be created, where those who possess Money or certain important ressources gain Power and control the Planet via a network of minions which are oblieged to this Planetary Leader and control for Example a City or a Continent.

But on an insterstellar Scale?

Dunno, I think it depends on which Dangers Humankind faces in Interstellar Space. If there is some kind of external Pressure, for example Colonies waging War against each other, or interstellar Piracy, I could imagine that it could lead to Colonies forming Alliances, which could eventually lead to some kind of interstellar Feudal System.

But I don´t think it is too realistic. After all I can imagine some kind of Feudal Structure evolving in small Colonies, but larger Feudal Systems, encompassing a whole Planet or even several Planets in different Star Systems IMHO aren´t very likely to appear.

[:) Smiley]

What bugs me more than the antiquated space governments though is how sci fi writers expect standard issue humans to remain as such when they permanently settle on other planets. You'd think some genetic engineering would be necessary to live easily on planets with different surface gravities or atmospheric pressures.

Stories from before the 1970s when the stars were closer than the genomes are excused from the proceeding argument. Those were the days, eh?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Smiley
You'd think some genetic engineering would be necessary to live easily on planets with different surface gravities or atmospheric pressures.

Genes are not like Lego blocks, that you insert a block somewhere in a sequence and it'd automatically work. It's not that way at all.

[GePap]

A lot of writers (good ones) figured changes in size due to living in different gravities: though that is simply a result of the environment one grows up in.

Proteus_MST

Nice summary. I agree that on a very small, internal scale, some form of neo-feudalism might be possible, though I say neo becuase it's foundation would have to be different than in the past: I do;t know if being able to porvide troops would be the basis for aristocracy in a space age.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by GePap
A lot of writers (good ones) figured changes in size due to living in different gravities: though that is simply a result of the environment one grows up in.

Presumably, beings native to high-g environs will be smaller and shorter than beings native to low-g environs.

The most extreme high-g environ I have read is that of Dragon's Egg: the surface of a neutron star. If you like hardcore sci-fi, it's very good read.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Worthingtons
Why is this one so special, i mean it's only on 3 posts?

I was just testing my powers of telepathic persuassion. I have successfully demonstrated my ability to "influence" the actions of people (in this case the mods) from great distances and well-outside direct line-of-sight.

The Imperial throne is almost mine...










Nah...why this thread? Just 'cause.
*Shrugs shoulders*
The mods needed to make a decision which thread to keep; I just made it easier for them.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by GePap

Proteus_MST

Nice summary. I agree that on a very small, internal scale, some form of neo-feudalism might be possible, though I say neo becuase it's foundation would have to be different than in the past: I do;t know if being able to porvide troops would be the basis for aristocracy in a space age.

Battletech builds around just this, i.e. the Nobility providing Troops.
As Battlemechs (Giant Humanoid Fighting Machines in the Battletech Universe, the Mightiest Weapon on the Battlefield) are very Expensive, those who possess their own Battlemech have good Chances to become Knights and maybe rise further in the Rank of Nobility and very often titles of Nobility (which often go along which some Acres of Real Estate on some Planet or even a whole Planet) are provided to Commanders of Regiments of Battlemechs who have proven to be especially faithful Servants to their Leaders.

As for Spacekings in Reality:
Nope, I also don´t think that this System of Neo-Feudalism might be centered primarily around military Matters.
Rather around those new Barons, Dukes and the like being trusthworthy and good managers to the Estates provided by them and of course being able to give their Leader the Tribute in Money and Raw Materials, he demands.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Certainly there would have to be some sort of meritocracy designed not to make the best and brightest the enemies of the regime but to instead integrate them into regime: Merit Lordships and such.

Any such system will become hereditary within three generations. Since merit itself isn't hereditary, a space monarchy is a very flawed system of government.

[:) Smiley]

Well, if only the rich get access to genetic engineering tech, merit could darn well be inherited.

Gonna hit the writing table now.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Smiley
Well, if only the rich get access to genetic engineering tech, merit could darn well be inherited.

Genetic Engineering doesn't work the way you think it works. No, there is no "smart" gene you can splice.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Genetic Engineering doesn't work the way you think it works. No, there is no "smart" gene you can splice.

There goes all hope for people like David Floyd, Sava, and Fez.

[Az]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Genetic Engineering doesn't work the way you think it works. No, there is no "smart" gene you can splice.

Certainly not a single one. But, indeed, no such gene or group of genes have been discovered, at least not yet.

[Jon Miller]

I thought I ahd a post in this therad

Joj M Iller

[GePap]

You probalby had a post in one of the other 4 versions which disappeared. Actually, this incarnation was the one with the least posts early on.