Reply With QuoteI just made the mistake of reading some of your posts.
Kid
If you want to reach or connect with people, you have to make an effort to understand them. You need to make that effort, you need to listen to them.
JM
It's amazing to me when someone claims to believe in reason and resorts to childish bullshit to try and get others to share their beliefs.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
I just made the mistake of reading some of your posts.
Kid
If you want to reach or connect with people, you have to make an effort to understand them. You need to make that effort, you need to listen to them.
JM
Last edited by Jon Miller; August 27, 2012 at 16:55.
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
don't listen to these fools DaShi, just close your eyes and I shall sprinkle fairy dust on you and you shall believe in evolution
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
My greatest wish is to be half the poster MikeH is.
Things can be created through natural processes. Just not from nothing (as far as we know).Originally Posted by Kidicious
I don't really get your point, how can you use god as a cause and then wave off the inevitable 'what was the cause that created the effect of god' with a casual 'oh he's omnipotent'.
Everything in the natural world leads backwards to something else. We reach the point of the big bang and basically get pretty stuck, as we don't have the tools yet to work any further back. Hopefully one way we will, but when you bring a god into it you're basically just using god of the gaps. You're inventing an infinitely complicated being and saying thats the answer. How is that any more logical than someone saying the universe just appeared one day?
Incidentally I think I read a while back about the discovery of some faint radiation rings that appear to pre-date the big bang. I'm guessing Jon will know whether that happened or not though.
Why don't you go take a long walk off a short cliff? You suck.I just made the mistake of reading some of your posts.
Kid
If you want to reach or connect with people, you have to make an effort to understand them. You need to make that effort, you need to listen to them.
JM
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Then where did the natural processes come from? If we are going to get anywhere here you have to answer my question and stop avoiding it. I didn't say things were created from nothing. I'm saying that the creator of the universe is superior to the universe and everything in it, including the laws that govern it, because he created it.
You seem to not understand what omnipotent means. It means that he is not governed by any laws (natural laws), which means that he doesn't need a cause for himself.I don't really get your point, how can you use god as a cause and then wave off the inevitable 'what was the cause that created the effect of god' with a casual 'oh he's omnipotent'.
Again, you are just avoiding the problem. I really am at a lose as too why so many of you do this. The Big Bang is a theory, not a fact. Ok, so what if theoretically you could find some cause for the Big Bang. That doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You still have the problem that there must be a first cause, an effect which can't be explained by science. I'm asking you what do you think that is? You seem to have no desire to inquire about that, which is strange for me. How can you just avoid this problem when it is so important? I mean the answer to this question means everything about everything. If you don't even bother to think about it you are seriously misguided.Everything in the natural world leads backwards to something else. We reach the point of the big bang and basically get pretty stuck, as we don't have the tools yet to work any further back. Hopefully one way we will, but when you bring a god into it you're basically just using god of the gaps. You're inventing an infinitely complicated being and saying thats the answer. How is that any more logical than someone saying the universe just appeared one day?
Incidentally I think I read a while back about the discovery of some faint radiation rings that appear to pre-date the big bang. I'm guessing Jon will know whether that happened or not though.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
I have no idea why you equate 'we don't know' with avoiding the question. It's quite simple, we don't have the tools or the knowledge yet to answer that question. Surely the honest thing to do when something is unknown is to admit that you don't know? That doesn't mean of course that we're not going to keep trying to find out.
Which with all due respect is a cop out.
Something we've never found any evidence for, but which magically answers all our questions. Sorry but that requires blind faith and I don't trust anything that requires you to blindly believe.
Of course I think about it, like I presume pretty much everyone else does too. The thing is however I don't expect there to be a simple 'oh that's why!' kind of answer to the question. As a species we think on a very scale oriented level with the things around us generally determining how we think about everything else. Have you ever spent any time thinking about how the world looks at an atomic level? Ie, not just a picture of an atom, but how that means the world must look and work at that scale? It's completely mindblowing to think about, and I don't see why it shouldn't be just as insane to us when you scale up to universe scale science. For all we know our entire universe could be one 'atom' in another entire mega-universe, we just have no real idea.
Let me try this just one more time. You aren't going to find out how things exist with science, because the scientific laws say that every effect has a cause. It is not a cop out to say, how else could things exist if an omnipotent God didn't create it.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Nice troll DaShi, love your work
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..
Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
My greatest wish is to be half the poster MikeH is.
Of course it's a cop out, you're making a giant assumption that the only way this stuff could have happened is with some magical creator figure who just made it all happen. You completely ignored my point about scale btw, and how the workings of the world at a micro scale are completely unrecognizable to the way we think. You want an easy answer and I'm saying you're probably not going to get one. That doesn't mean there isn't an answer to be had.
Maybe you don't understand what an assumption is. I didn't assume that God created the universe. That is my conslusion. An assumption would be that we can use logic to come to a conclusion regarding this question. I have logically considered the facts. Particularly that observing the universe does not explain how things can come to exist.
I don't know what your point is about scale. You will have to explain to me how that has anything to do with the question of how we exist. Sure, there are atoms, so what?
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
So far AH has the most plausible argument.
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
No, you're assuming thats the only way it could have happened. That's an assumption.
Think about it more, it's not about atoms existing its about how the world works at an atomic scale. I.E. in a way that is basically completely alien and incredible to us because the scale we think on is shaped by our experiences and how we view the world. The point being that there is no reason why if you scale UP instead of down, that the universe might not work in a very different way to anything we can currently understand or relate to, and its much harder to look up rather than down because for one thing we're looking for things taking place over billions of years. Understanding that stuff is likely to take us centuries/millenia if indeed we ever can.
What I'm saying is that when you ask 'how did it start' you're probably asking a question that is far too simple to really mean anything. For all we know there was no start and will be no end.
No, you don't know what an assumption is. An assumption that is taken for granted, that needs nothing to support it. Like I said, the physical universe can not explain how something can exist. And I am not assuming that that is the only way it could have happened. I'm saying that since it is impossible to have happened (as far as logic dictates) it must be because of a being that can do the impossible. That is the only reasonable conclussion. There aren't anyothers. Your thing about the atoms isn't a conclussion.
Can you think of any reason how things can exist other than the one I provided, or are you just going to go on with this irrelevancy? I mean perhaps the natural laws just don't exist. I could think of others. But that's not explaining how things can exist.Think about it more, it's not about atoms existing its about how the world works at an atomic scale. I.E. in a way that is basically completely alien and incredible to us because the scale we think on is shaped by our experiences and how we view the world. The point being that there is no reason why if you scale UP instead of down, that the universe might not work in a very different way to anything we can currently understand or relate to, and its much harder to look up rather than down because for one thing we're looking for things taking place over billions of years. Understanding that stuff is likely to take us centuries/millenia if indeed we ever can.
What I'm saying is that when you ask 'how did it start' you're probably asking a question that is far too simple to really mean anything. For all we know there was no start and will be no end.
Last edited by Kidicious; August 27, 2012 at 18:54.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Sorry, that's a ridiculous conclusion. My point about scale was to illustrate that the possibilities are almost certainly beyond our understanding. You are looking for easy answers to incredibly complex questions and insisting that because you can't have an easy answer that you'll make one up yourself. Also the idea that there are no other possible conclusions is incredibly arrogant. It makes you sound like a flat earther insisting that the earth being flat is the only possible conclusion. If history has shown us anything its that there is always more to learn.
I already pointed out that if the universe is infinite there may well be no start or end but just an endless cycle. Once again you're making an assumption that everything has to have a start point. As I've repeatedly said though, we don't know the answer, we don't yet have the capacity to find the answer, but that does not mean there is no answer to be found. The stuff we now know would have seemed utterly ridiculous and beyond comprehension just a century ago, so what makes you so certain that you have all the answers now?
You haven't offered any other conclusions. So far God did it is the only conclussion on the table. Is it a fact? No. My point is that you don't have any conclusions because all you will use is science, and that discipline can not afford you a conclusion.
What do you mean, "if the universe is infinite?" Do you or don't you believe in big bang? I'm confused now.I already pointed out that if the universe is infinite there may well be no start or end but just an endless cycle. Once again you're making an assumption that everything has to have a start point. As I've repeatedly said though, we don't know the answer, we don't yet have the capacity to find the answer, but that does not mean there is no answer to be found. The stuff we now know would have seemed utterly ridiculous and beyond comprehension just a century ago, so what makes you so certain that you have all the answers now?
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Oh, Steady State theory? "The steady state model is now largely discredited, as the observational evidence points to a Big Bang-type cosmology and a finite age of the universe." -wiki
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Is that the sort of thing Jesus would want you to say?
How is God on the table? How is invoking God to explain the universe any more sensible than invoking a meta-God to explain God? Is God an atheist? Is the meta-God a turtle who was created by an even more powerful turtle, all the way up?
Here's another theory, the universe was **** out of the ass of a giant omnipotent unicorn with a rainbow mane. Please point out how your theory has more validity than mine and why.
If the reports of radiation patterns older than the big bang are true, it could be that the universe endlessly contracts and then expands. Last I heard the expansion was seemingly theoretically too fast to allow for subsequent contraction, but again we really don't know nearly enough about how anything works yet to be drawing definitive conclusions about anything. It could be that when supermassive black holes start to merge that some really weird **** happens that we simply haven't ever seen.
I don't know. Jesus had a few words for hypocrites that you may not be aware of.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
I'll repeat. If God can create the universe he doesn't need to be created.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Yeah, I'm not aware of him telling anyone to walk off a cliff. That would kind of clash with the "love your neighbor" stuff.
Why? If the universe creates something is the universe exempt from needing to be created?
What is your basis for saying that he is giant, a unicorn, and has rainbow mane?
Which part of "the evidence points to a finite age of the universe" don't you get? All of this doesn't mean anything. You are talking irrelevancy. What does it have to do with anything?If the reports of radiation patterns older than the big bang are true, it could be that the universe endlessly contracts and then expands. Last I heard the expansion was seemingly theoretically too fast to allow for subsequent contraction, but again we really don't know nearly enough about how anything works yet to be drawing definitive conclusions about anything. It could be that when supermassive black holes start to merge that some really weird **** happens that we simply haven't ever seen.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Anyone who acts like you are right now is a jackass, and not my neighbor.
hint: Do you know the context in which Jesus said "love thy neighbor?"
answer:
“A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Last edited by Kidicious; August 27, 2012 at 20:37.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
The universe is governed by the laws.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Oh, so God allows you to judge whether someone is a "jackass" who you don't have to treat you with kindness?
So maybe the laws were never created?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...12&version=ESV28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Yeah, I'm not seeing any exceptions to who is a "neighbor" there.
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