I want to believe in evolution

[Robert]

I wanna see someone find a humanoid fossil and a dinosaur fossil in the same geological strata.

And if they find it, would you be convinced, or would you just try to find an excuse?

The bottom line is of course that we do not believe/follow what we are convinced of by ratio, but we believe/follow what we want to believe.
The human being isn't rational at all. Our brains aren't evolved/created to be rational, they are just only to survive.

Most atheists will never accept 6day creationism, not even if we could find proof of it somehow. Like a creationist will never accept evolutionism, not even if we would find proof of it somehow. The reason is that it's not a simple scientific opinion we have, but it is because our view and our way of life depends on it.

Of course it's not as black/white as I depict it above, but it's not far from it either.

[MikeH]

Most atheists will never accept 6day creationism, not even if we could find proof of it somehow. Like a creationist will never accept evolutionism, not even if we would find proof of it somehow. The reason is that it's not a simple scientific opinion we have, but it is because our view and our way of life depends on it.

Of course it's not as black/white as I depict it above, but it's not far from it either.

ITYM

creationist will never accept evolutionism, even though it has already passed every test we've ever thrown at it and is as well tested and proven as any other mainstream scientific theory

There is a great comic, it might be an XKCD (I couldn't find it on google, maybe some one else could help)

Physicist is watching a biologist on TV saying "We understand Evolution as much as we understand Gravity"

And the Physicist is flabbergasted - "Is he saying we don't understand Evolution?!"

The main problem with this discussion is that people don't understand what is meant by a scientific theory and what is meant by proof.

We already have enough evidence that literal 6 day creationism can't be true. We don't know everything, but we have conclusively proven that that model doesn't reflect the universe we observe.

[MikeH]

And if they find it, would you be convinced, or would you just try to find an excuse?

If we found a humanoid mammal and dinosaur in the same strata it would mean that mammals evolved millions of years earlier than we though, it would be an exciting addition to science, not proof that evolution was wrong. It is really, really unlikely, but what we can know about what lived a hundred million years ago is understandably limited.

[MikeH]

The simple thing is :

You don't have to know everything about your current best theory to be able to disprove another theory.

We absolutely can conclusively disprove 6 day creationism.
We can't disprove that the big bang was instigated by a 'God' who created the rules of the universe in order to eventually create humanity on earth. And I know that is the kind of creationism many Christians do believe.

[MikeH]

I have went to my biologist friends about a couple of points in the evolution/creationism discussion.

They didn't know, and but believed in the science.

I think that other than a few experts, almost no one takes the time to know/understand without the need of faith (and that is ignoring trusting the experimentalists to be doing good science) in the experts.

As far as YEC goes, the theology can be discussed... but the science is just pointing out possible inconsistencies within the evolution theoretical framework. I guess there is science the other way, but it is just lunacy and I don't think that anyone who really values science gives it any value.

JM
(Maybe more time should be spent on the theology, there is a reason why ~100 years ago there were very few YECs.)

I think these are all good points - except that there is a difference between trusting something that is commonly accepted by science -having been through the process of scientific discovery and review, retesting that needs to happen before something is accepted (by scientists who are often bitter rivals trying to disprove their competitors) - and faith in something that by it's nature cannot be proven, tested and reproduced in the same way.

[Aeson]

We absolutely can conclusively disprove 6 day creationism.

The versions that rely on an omnipotent God to make things look the way they look are impossible to disprove. (However they aren't convincing at all either.)

[Wezil]

That would be the Jokester God Bill Hicks referred to.

[MrFun]

And if they find it, would you be convinced, or would you just try to find an excuse?

The bottom line is of course that we do not believe/follow what we are convinced of by ratio, but we believe/follow what we want to believe.
The human being isn't rational at all. Our brains aren't evolved/created to be rational, they are just only to survive.

Most atheists will never accept 6day creationism, not even if we could find proof of it somehow. Like a creationist will never accept evolutionism, not even if we would find proof of it somehow. The reason is that it's not a simple scientific opinion we have, but it is because our view and our way of life depends on it.

Of course it's not as black/white as I depict it above, but it's not far from it either.

I'm a Christian who does not accept intelligent design - not an atheist.

And I'm so confident in evolution, that I made a deal with Ben - I will accept intelligent design when someone finds a humanoid fossil in the same geological strata with a dinosaur fossil.

[Robert]

I'm a Christian who does not accept intelligent design - not an atheist.

And I'm so confident in evolution, that I made a deal with Ben - I will accept intelligent design when someone finds a humanoid fossil in the same geological strata with a dinosaur fossil.

Intelligent design doesn't equal creationism.
I think there are people who do believe in ID, combined with an old earth. So they can still believe that humans didn't live at the same time with dinosaurs.

But anyway, you're not answering the question.

[MrFun]

I did answer your question. I said I will accept creationism/intelligent design if they find a humanoid fossil and a dinosaur fossil in the same geological strata.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Again, Bird fossils are contemporary with humanoid fossils.

Dinosaurs are a diverse group of animals of the clade Dinosauria. They first appeared during the Triassic period, approximately 230 million years ago, and were the dominant terrestrial vertebrates for 135 million years, from the beginning of the Jurassic (about 200 million years ago) until the end of the Cretaceous (65.5 million years ago), when the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event led to the extinction of most dinosaur groups at the close of the Mesozoic Era. The fossil record indicates that birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic Period, and consequently they are considered a subgroup of dinosaurs in modern classification systems.[1][2] Some birds survived the extinction event that occurred 65 million years ago, and their descendants continue the dinosaur lineage to the present day.

Courtesy wiki

[Robert]

you did, I stand corrected.

[Kidlicious]

i met someone the other day who believes in 7 day creationism, believes that the bible is the literal truth etc. she was american (what a surprise). she was bemoaning the fact that academics who believe in creationism are discriminated against in the sciences and not taken seriously. i was astonished to discover that there are academics who believe in creationism. i gently pointed out that maybe scientists find it hard to take seriously people who reject the enormous amount of scientific evidence for evolution. i gave the example of bacteria becoming immune to antibiotics. she said that there is evidence on both sides. i asked what evidence, apart from the bible, is there for creationism she said the bible was evidence. i, trying hard still to be polite, asked why she preferred the christian creation story to, say, the norse one or the greek one, or perhaps the one of that west african tribe who believe that the world is entirely made out of ant excrement. she said that she respected everyone's beliefs, including my one in evolution. i tried to explain that my 'belief' does not require faith in a single text written several thousand years ago but instead relies on a mountain of scientific evidence. she repeated that she respected everyone's beliefs. i decided to change the subject.

this woman is a teacher, although thankfully not a science teacher. she spent a lot of the rest of time talking about angels and demons and about the constant battle between good and evils 'forces' in the world. this included a particularly outlandish conspiracy theory about how many record labels had shrines to the devils and that their artists gained success by selling their souls.

what is it with the US and letting religious nutters instruct children?

You were an ass.

[MrFun]

Again, Bird fossils are contemporary with humanoid fossils.




Courtesy wiki

Right, which is why I should have clarified non-bird dinosaurs.

[MrFun]

you did, I stand corrected.