A question for our Dutch posters.

[Dinner]

Watch this video, it's of one of the Republican front runners to become President of the USA and he's claiming that 10% of elderly people in the Netherlands are "involuntarily euthanized" (killed by doctors without their permission) and so, he claims, older people in the Netherlands avoid going to the doctor because they supposedly fear for their lives.



This claim, of course, smells like complete bullshit and sounds like just another GOP lie (Dah evil socialized health care has da death panels!") especially since this week Santorum has renewed his proven false claims that the American health care reform bill contains death panels where politicians will get to decide who lives and who dies. So, anyway, I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth from one of our Dutch posters about how full of **** Santorum and the GOP is.

[MikeH]

I don't believe that anyone could be stupid or ignorant enough to believe that claim.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

lolololol

people that are near death due to something incurable can request euthanasia, if they feel they are suffering more than is acceptable as quality of life.

the health industry has created various drugs that allow one to postpone death for a number of incurable diseases, yet the journey only becomes longer and more painful. there was a newsitem recently on research on doctors with incurable diseases. apparently, almost all of them die a quick death, and refuse to take any drugs to prolong their life, as they have seen time and again what it turns the patients into.

[Zoetstofzoetje]

btw our politicians might be boring, but if i had to choose between one of your FUD puppets and our grey mouse bureaucrats, i´d choose the mouse in a heartbeat

[Dinner]

I don't believe that anyone could be stupid or ignorant enough to believe that claim.

Last night he won the Repubican primaries in three states. It seems a whole lot of people were stupid enough and ignorant enough to believe his outlandish claims. That says something about the lack of information among Republican voters.

[dannubis]

Watch this video, it's of one of the Republican front runners to become President of the USA and he's claiming that 10% of elderly people in the Netherlands are "involuntarily euthanized" (killed by doctors without their permission) and so, he claims, older people in the Netherlands avoid going to the doctor because they supposedly fear for their lives.



This claim, of course, smells like complete bullshit and sounds like just another GOP lie (Dah evil socialized health care has da death panels!") especially since this week Santorum has renewed his proven false claims that the American health care reform bill contains death panels where politicians will get to decide who lives and who dies. So, anyway, I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth from one of our Dutch posters about how full of **** Santorum and the GOP is.

Typically, this is how it is supposed to work:

1. Patient asks doctor to end his suffering.
2. 3 doctors have to convene and need to reach a consensus to see if the patient's request is valid

So, ONLY at the request of a patient and ONLY if 3 doctors agree euthanasia is granted.

Now, my grandfather (90 years old) has had progressive lung deficiency for the past 10 years. He is at his end (measuring 1.75 m and only weighing 47 kg) so 3 days ago he asks his doctor to end his life. 2 doctors agree but 1 mother****er from a Catholic hospital refuses. So my grandfather can suffer for 2 more weeks before he will finally die (all 3 doctors agree he won't live to see the end of the month).

I wonder why these sadistic religeous mother****ers think they have the right to prolong someones suffering (against his explicit wishes) without any realistic possibility for a solution.

[Dinner]

You're sadistic religious mother ****ers might refuse to grant mercy but our sadistic religious mother ****ers simply make up complete bullshit so that ignorant worthless piece of **** Republican voters without health care can continue voting for them and voting against politicians who would actually get them decent health care. "But, but, but... Sarah Palin, Donald Trump, and Rick Santorum all said the evil communist socialist doctors just want to MURDER grand-dad!!!!1111!!!!ONE!!1"

We need to nationalize all education in this country because it's absolutely ****ing obvious that decentralizing it into 50 different states (most of which decentralize it to the county or city level) is resulting in drooling idiots. I mean absolutely ****ing drooling idiots and worse the GOP loves that they're so stupid because their politics REQUIRE most people to be ****ing completely stupid.

[dannubis]

Ah well... my grandfather passed away a few hours ago. It is sad that he's gone but I am happy he didn't have to suffer for another week.

[Dinner]

Sorry to hear it, man.

[Elok]

Yeah, that sucks. My grandmother passed away this past Sunday, but I barely knew her since she lived really far away. It must be tough for my mom, though.

How are the doctors for your euthanasia-consulting panels chosen, anyway? I mean, if a doctor opposes pretty much all euthanasia...isn't that kind of like putting a PETA member on the inspection committee for slaughterhouses? "I'm shutting you down." "Why?" "Because you're doing bad things to animals in there, you meanie!"

[dannubis]

Thanks.

Elok, I am sorry for your loss.

How the selection works I don't know. The thing is, they all 3 agreed to perform the euthanasia. But then the management of the hospital intervened and had one of the doctors reverse the desicion.

[DinoDoc]

It seems to be a wild exaggeration of the legal status active non-voluntary euthanasia has in the Netherlands which I doubt is widely used.

[The Mad Monk]

Last night he won the Repubican primaries in three states. It seems a whole lot of people were stupid enough and ignorant enough to believe his outlandish claims. That says something about the lack of information among Republican voters.

The problem is most of us really don't want the Party's annointed, and are unwilling to to through McCain again, so we WILL go through EVERY other candidate until none are left or the Party gets the message.

Oh, and an old style "brokered convention" by the Party to do an end run around this = me voting for Obama.

[DinoDoc]

The problem with your POV is that most of the people that would have been better than the current crop refused to run.

[The Mad Monk]

If Romney wins via the primaries, I will vote for him. The idea of brokering to avoid another candidate getting the nod is outrageous.

[Dr Strangelove]

Could the Netherlands sue Santorum for defamation of character?

[Dr Strangelove]

Could the Netherlands sue Santorum for defamation of character?

Does euthanasia account for 10% of all deaths in the Netheralnds?

[kentonio]

Netherlands deaths 2010: 136 058

In 2010 there were 3136 cases reported of a physician assisting the death of a patient.

I make that... 2.3%

[Dr Strangelove]

Well Santorum probably doesn't know the difference between 2 and 10 in Dutch.

[Traianvs]

Thanks.

Elok, I am sorry for your loss.

How the selection works I don't know. The thing is, they all 3 agreed to perform the euthanasia. But then the management of the hospital intervened and had one of the doctors reverse the desicion.

If your grandfather was terminally ill, only two doctors are required to approve euthanasia (link)

I have a feeling your grandfathers rights were abused. Check out leif.be: http://www.leif.be/nl/vragen-en-antw...-je-dat--.html

6/ Wist je dat er in elk ziekenhuis een ombudsfunctie bestaat waar je terecht kunt met al je klachten over de schending van patiëntenrechten door zorgverstrekkers ? Indien deze dienst onbereikbaar is, of het conflict niet opgelost geraakt, kan je nog altijd terecht bij de federale ombudsdienst.

[Traianvs]

In Belgium, 4 out of 10 deaths are determined by a medical decision. This means that rather they are directed by doctors rather than by natural causes. Of course, this includes more than just voluntary euthanasia.

[Dinner]

The Dutch have finally figured out the Republican front runner is lying about them.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3017...h-backlash.htm

[DinoDoc]

They don't vote though. So I doubt he cares.

[Oncle Boris]

You vote, and you still don't care though.

[a.kitman]

yeah its not like the american public will care if they are beeing lied to.

[DinoDoc]

You vote, and you still don't care though.

What made you think I was planning on voting for him in the primary to begin with?

[The Mad Monk]

In Belgium, 4 out of 10 deaths are determined by a medical decision. This means that rather they are directed by doctors rather than by natural causes. Of course, this includes more than just voluntary euthanasia.

So up to 40% of the deaths in Belgium are from doctors deliberately killing patients without their permission?

[DinoDoc]

So up to 40% of the deaths in Belgium are from doctors deliberately killing patients without their permission?

Involuntary euthanasia is illegal in the Netherlands. Active non voluntary euthanasia which is different from what Santorum was referring to however is legal under under an agreement between physicians and district attorneys that was ratified by the Dutch National Association of Pediatricians. I would be interested in any stats on its use however.

[Elok]

What's "active non-voluntary" mean? Killing the permanently incapacitated who can't communicate their wishes, as with the comatose? Or what?

[DinoDoc]

Yes. Though it seems to be mainly performed on infants.