Right. I have these feelings because I threw a dart at a board and that's what I hit.Originally Posted by Zevico
I've done the analysis and come to a different conclusion than you. Unlike you, I have no desire to spend the next several pages arguing the same points. Suffice to say, I would be perfectly happy for time to prove me wrong in this regard. Your analysis has a much happier ending.
Last edited by Wezil; February 10, 2012 at 18:08. Reason: Typo
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
I don't doubt they have the money to pay some body to make them a nuke but I do know the Saudis can't even keep the aircraft we sell them flying without western experts repairing them for them. I imagine the same lack of expertise would hamper and domestic nuclear program only when it comes to nukes they'll likely find the west is unwilling to send them the experts they need.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
The article expresses opinion on where they'd get ready-made nukes.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
I did not know that, I thought Saddam wanted a chunk of land near the Gulf and the west wanted him to mess with the IraniansIranian policy in Iraq before the Iran-Iraq war. This was a war that began because Iran was sponsoring Shiite groups that assassinated Ba'ath members. The plan was to quite literally ensure that the Shiites killed their way to the top and toppled the Ba'ath.
He did. In the late 70's the Shah's government was sponsoring Kurdish rebel groups in Iraq as a proxy way to undermine Saddam, Saddam cut a deal with the Shah to give up the shat al arab waterway (a narrow stripe of land on the southern Iran-Iraq border) in exchange for the Shah to abandon the Kurds (which they did) but then when the Shah got over thrown and Iran was in the midst of revolution Saddam attacked Iran to try to regain the disputed territory.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Can't recall if this is correct or not.
Not exactly. There is a documented history of conciliatory overtures taken by the Ba'ath vis-a-vis the new Iranian regime. Saddam hoped that front could be kept quiet post-revolution, not least because of their shared anti-American worldview. The revolutionaries responded by killing Ba'ath officials. Then Saddam decided to invade. Saddam gambled that he -could- beat the Iranian regime in its weakened post-revolutionary state but the motive was self-preservation and, as a secondary matter, territorial enlargement. It is the Iranians, by contrast, who were fixated on a second Shia state in the Middle East, and with whom a peace with the Ba'ath was a "bitter pill," as Ayatollah Khomeini then put it.but then when the Shah got over thrown and Iran was in the midst of revolution Saddam attacked Iran to try to regain the disputed territory.
Last edited by Zevico; February 11, 2012 at 04:58.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier
Look, maybe I wasn't polite. I apologise for that. But what does the invasion of Iraq have to do with it? A discussion of an Israeli strike on Iran "reminds" you of the American invasion of Iraq...how? Because it "feels" the same? Explain yourself.Right. I have these feelings because I threw a dart at a board and that's what I hit.
Well, you've asserted that the Iranians were 'holding out' in Iraq and Afghanistan without offering any evidence for that assertion. Again, I'd be fascinated to actually see an article that explicitly accepts your assertion and backs it up with an evidentiary analysis; or alternatively, your own analysis, provided that its backed up by evidentiary analysis. I'd welcome it.I've done the analysis and come to a different conclusion than you. Unlike you, I have no desire to spend the next several pages arguing the same points. Suffice to say, I would be perfectly happy for time to prove me wrong in this regard. Your analysis has a much happier ending.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier
It seems that events keep leading us to the inevitable.
JERUSALEM — Israel's prime minister on Monday accused Iran of being behind a pair of car bombings against Israeli diplomatic targets in India and Georgia.
Benjamin Netanyahu told a meeting of lawmakers from his Likud Party that he believed the Iranians were responsible for the attacks in New Delhi and Tbilisi. Two people were wounded in India and the bomb in Georgia was discovered before it went off.
Netanyahu said Israel has thwarted other attacks in recent months in Azerbaijan, Thailand and elsewhere.
"In all those cases, the elements behind these attacks were Iran and its protege Hezbollah," he said.
Iran has accused Israel of involvement in a series of killings of officials and scientists involved in its controversial nuclear program.
Israel teams with terror group to kill Iran's nuke scientists
Israeli officials earlier told The Associated Press that an explosion tore through an Israeli diplomat's car in New Delhi. The driver and a diplomat's wife were injured, according to Indian officials.
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Television footage showed a charred minivan with blue diplomatic plates, its rear door apparently blown out.
Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor would not discuss who was injured nor the extent of the injuries because it was a security matter.
"There was one attempted attack, and one successful, as it were," said Paul Hirschson, a spokesman for Israel's foreign ministry. "In both cases, the people concerned worked with the Israeli embassies."
Hirschson said the Israeli ambassador to India was not hurt in the New Delhi attack.
Israel had put its foreign missions on especially high alert ahead of the February 12 anniversary of the assassination, in 2008, of the military mastermind of Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas, linked to the Shiite Islamist group Hezbollah, Imad Moughniyeh.
Iranian-backed Hezbollah had vowed to avenge Moughniyeh's death in a Damascus car-bombing, blaming it on Israel.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
well if the israelis assassinate iranian nuclear scientists, then they can hardly cry foul when iran targets their personnel.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
First of all, there is no moral equivalence between Israel and Iran whatsoever.
Secondly, Israel (presumably, it could just be MeK) targets people who are involved in a program that poses a serious threat to the continued existence of Israel and the lives of all of its citizens. Killing diplomats is not the same. It's like equating Iran stoning people to death for adultery (which in Iran includes being the victim of rape) and Virginia's or Texas' lethal injection of murderers (which is an equivalence I have seen actually made, sadly).
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Ahh, I was just wondering who was going to post this - this case is actually a great litmus test if you are a rational outsider, or have feelings involved in your opinion in the conflict. The Iranian scientist was a military target, as he was directly employed by the Iranian MIC. The Israeli ambassador is a diplomatic figure.
Good job.
classical answer: number of civilians killed by IDF vs number of civilians killed by Iran military ?
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
The Iranian military (especially Revolutionary Guard) has killed lots of civilians, most of them within its own borders. Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
So there is a moral equivalence, now is there ?
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
No. The Israeli government occaisonally kills civilians by accident while trying to protect its people from shelling and terrorist attacks whereas Iran terrorizes its own people and funds terrorist proxies throughout the region which deliberately target civilians. It's not the same.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
What do numbers have to do with this topic?
classical answer: number of civilians killed by IDF vs number of civilians killed by Iran military ?
Rosbifs are destructive scum- Spiffor
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
If government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is also big enough to take everything you have. - Gerald Ford
Blackwidow24 and FemmeAdonis fan club
They have to do with the simplistic notion that it's all about the number of people killed and not why they died that so many European useful idiots for Hamas hold dear.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Since you agree that the numbers argument is specious, why attempt to engage on those terms?
Rosbifs are destructive scum- Spiffor
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
If government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is also big enough to take everything you have. - Gerald Ford
Blackwidow24 and FemmeAdonis fan club
Fair point, but it's fun to point out that the numbers argument is also wrong on its own terms.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
AZ, when is it okay to target even uniformed military without a formal declaration of hostilities?
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"The more I look at Testaverde, the more I think he should be in the hall." - Ben Kenobi
"occassionbally kills by accident..."
Man, you are going out of your way to provide excuses aren't you? Firing a rocket into a densely populated area is the same for both sides of the israeli-palestinian conflict. You can't claim that collateral damage just happens.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
Try to set up a meeting for your 2 braincells. A spark might be created.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
Within the context of Iran, is it your contention that no expression of hostilities has been made?
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
My point: israel has a track record of shooting at civilians so they can't claim moral superiority
Your counterargument: iran does it too
My conclusion: it is ok to shoot civilians as long as israel does it. It seems the only useful idiots around here are you and DD. But you are in good company. (and since history shows you don't understand sarcasm very well, that was an example of it).
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -- Plato
wow. what a convincing argument.
this is very weak. as we discussed in another thread, iran getting nuclear weapons is not a threat to the existence of israel as:Secondly, Israel (presumably, it could just be MeK) targets people who are involved in a program that poses a serious threat to the continued existence of Israel and the lives of all of its citizens. Killing diplomats is not the same.
a) israel has its own nuclear weapons, and;
b) MAD
killing scientists is terrorism and murder. killing diplomats is terrorism and murder as well.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
ah the old, if you have a have view which isn't like mine, you're not rational. that one never wears out.
and the last scientist killed wasn't a member of the military, according to his wiki. he was a civilian, like the israeli ambassador.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
and of course several other civilian scientists have been assassinated by israel in the recent past. darioush rezaeinejad, majid shahriari et al. but murdering civilians is fine according to az, as long as israel does it, they are 'military targets'.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Yes. A state of war does not exist between Iran and Israel as far as I know. There have been no formal declarations nor any non-clandestine military operations.
Given that, the killing of even uniformed military, let alone scientists working for the military, on both sides would be a criminal act.
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"The more I look at Testaverde, the more I think he should be in the hall." - Ben Kenobi
A "declaration of war" isn't really what you said. If there had been, this whole discussion would be moot and the topic entirely different.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
Why does every thread in Apolyton have to turn into a thread about the American Civil War or Israel?
"They [pets] can't be reasoned with when their instincts kick in and they remember that they're animals. Especially dogs which are genetically 100% wolves." - Al B. Sure!
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