Balkan Breakup Scenario - Creation Thread

[Hans99]

@ Mc Monkey

Yeah, there will be no great blitzkriegstyle ( Later you can try it, but your resources are just so scarce and military vehicles are a rare good ), but wait till Agricola tries this scen as serb. If you choose the serb side you have the possibillity to hold Yugoslavia together, but i promise you, to make it as difficult as possible. I considered many things from the agricola thread ...

We got Snowstorm here, but i'm sitting at home and warming my feet hehe...

[Hans99]

Little progress report:

I did a testrun with no events.txt and no good working tech tree yet. Turn rate is 1 Week starting with 1 Week of July 1991. I played as Slovene till March 1992 ( 26 Weeks ).

I was amazed how historically correct the AI was going forward. I had thrown out the Yugoslav army out of slovenia after 4 weeks. Croatia had a hard time, as Vukovar was conquered after 6 Weeks and Vinkovci fell shortly after. In west Slavonia they captured Pozega and planned to cut Slavonia off of croatia just as it was planned in reality.

Dubrovnik came under heavy siege, but held out till March 1992

Zadar also came under heavy siege, but held out till now.

The Krajina Serbs fortified their positions, just as intended.

Sanski Most was lost early ( As in reality ) but the 5th Corps defender of Bihac managed to hold on their pocket.

Sarajevo was under heavy siege, but managed with help from roaming UN Units to hold on.

Most of the small Croat pockets in Bosnia were conquered by serbs.

Zvornik, Brcko and Brod fell in February 1992 ( reality was i think also around Feb 1992, at least the Chetniks came into Zvornik town around this time )

Mostar is under heavy siege.




It is remarkable, that the AI has no greater problems in this scen yet.


My Observations:

-> The AI military works very effective against itself in this scen. But you as human can exploit the known weaknesses...

-> Villages work as intended, but i somehow have to prevent the tech gifts from them, maybe there is some way around this problem ?

-> Serbia declared war only to croatia and bosnia ( Peace - war - peace - war etc... with bosnia, just as in reality, sometimes 2 Peace treaties a week that got broken even as fast )

-> Albania, Macedonia, and the UN/Nato stayed at peace with serbia all the time. In Macedonia the AI even reatreated their armies ( As in reality 1992 )

-> in the first few turns the ai seemed to explore the map, as they moved their units in all directions rather than towards enemy cities, guess this is a problem as i did not save it as .SCN yet.

-> Air Force was used in a effective way by the AI

-> SPAA and AA is too powerful

-> A serb marine got lost in italian territory

-> Serb infantry conquered Temschburg ( Romania ) ?! Will make some events, as to protect the neighbours/minorities or even mount an counterattack.

-> I must place the UN strategically to prevent serbia to be too powerful...

-> The bosnian cities in the Sandzak region in reality remained at peace with serbia throughout the war, in the testrun the were attacked. I somehow have to prevent serbia attacking them all the time or to conquer them too early. Maybe with some Hex editing...

-> The albanian army stayed in their territory, just moved some units into macedon terrain, which already is major ethnic albanian.

-> Serbia set up a SAM Screen around the city of Beograd

-> The Battle of the barracks worked as intended.

So im very confident to get this on a good run...

wish me luck guys

[Gelion]

Question, are you going to simulate the little Russian involvement there was, like the capture of Pristina airport by Russian comandos?

[Hans99]

@ Gileon

Hmmm, i still got two unit slots free, and i know that there were twists between russia nd NATO/UN, and also many russian volunteers in the serb army.

I think in some way those twist will also flow in.

A Russian/Nato Conflict would be difficult to simulate as i run out of civilizations, altough i could use one slot for a russian unit wich is from the barbarian civ, which generates some events if attacked or destroyed.

Why you ask ?

[McMonkey]

-> Villages work as intended, but i somehow have to prevent the tech gifts from them, maybe there is some way around this problem ?

One of the techs stops advances via huts. See the 'Barbarian paper'. At work now so I can't provide a link. Worked perfectly for me in 'A Soaring Spirit'!

[Gelion]

@ Gileon

Hmmm, i still got two unit slots free, and i know that there were twists between russia nd NATO/UN, and also many russian volunteers in the serb army.

I think in some way those twist will also flow in.

A Russian/Nato Conflict would be difficult to simulate as i run out of civilizations, altough i could use one slot for a russian unit wich is from the barbarian civ, which generates some events if attacked or destroyed.

Why you ask ?

I was just wondering if that important part of history was covered in your scenario. NATO was pro-independence, and Russia tried to support the Serbs, but without much success. Since you have NATO as a separate civ, I though it would not be bad if the Serbs had some additional positive events.
This is what I was talking about, I know nothing about Russian volonteers in the field. Kosovo Force is a good place to start researching as well.

[Hans99]

@ Mc Monkey

I know that invention does this, but this changes all of my city styles to renaissance..
Even Civtweak could not convert them back...
At the moment i am trying to use some dummy tech's or to block the tech tree temporarly for a few weeks... i dunno...

@ Gileon

Will check this out, thanks

[Hans99]

Short question:

I now saved my .Sav as .Scn...

Now when i end the turn i get to see every battle of the other factions. This is rather annoying. Is there a way to turn this off ?

[Gelion]

You must have saved your scen when you had the "Reveal All Map" enabled. Depending on your goals you can do either of the two:
1) Re-save the scenario after you switch to the map to the civ you are playing in under "Show map" options.
2) Enter cheat mode in your scen test and disable the "Reveal All Map" option by doing the same as in N1.

[Hans99]

So, better late than never.

@ Gileon i already did what you proposed but it did not help.

But i found the reason why every nation was able to see every battle that occured around the world.

It was the wonder of Marco polos Embassy.
Even if it was obsolete but built i still would see any battle of the world. Only a total absence/destruction of the wonder could render this effect void.

Now i only see the battles in my line of sight, as it should be.

I do not know if the effect of this wonder was known before. Might be worthwile to note for the Great library.

[McMonkey]

Handy to know. It can be a pain to have to watch every enemy move, especially when building/testing a scenario with a lot of units.

[Hans99]

So next issue, i guess there is no way for the UNITKILLED command in the events.txt
to include the location of where the unit is killed ?

Any ideas ?

[Varwnos]

Maybe you could find some use in this:

[Hans99]

@ Varwnos

I'll see where i can put this to use, Thanks *Thumbs up*

Concerning the unitkilled command, well i found out it is not possible.

[Hans99]

So, next Update, i am using the "Civilization Scenario Programming Library" CSPL from Angelo Scotto at the moment ( Downloaded it from the Cradle of Civ Website ), as it seems to be the only way for me to satisfy my needs for some specific events.

My Question is: does someone still have the old update of CSPL (859_CSPL.zip) from mercator in 2005? As my version of CSPL is from 2001!!!

I did some testruns with classic events.txt with flags and masks, but were disappointed by the results, as i did not have the freedom of choice, as i wanted it ( Altough using flags and masks is a BIG advantage ).

Time to dust off my old Basic and C Programming skills and upgrade them...

[Gelion]

Glad you figured that out!

[Hans99]

so, next update:

-> Removed the villages as i were not able to block tech gifts from them

-> turn length is now in 2 month steps, as waiting 500 turns till kosovo crisis was a bit too loong...

-> revised tech tree, to conform new time frame

-> did a major overhaul of the rules.txt, to fit the new timeframe

-> added extra events concerning sandzak region

-> added wintertime

-> revised units, some have fallen out, as they were ineffective, which was shown in several playtests

-> Added Russian, Hungarian and Bulgarian Intervention, especially importan about future situation of vojvodina.

-> tried to invent transport for infantry like in Panzer general with CSPL, bout found out that ai is to stupid to use, so dropped it. I am still looking for mercators update!

Here are some winter impressions, lets hope christmas will also get as snowy.


Zagreb in December


Adem Jashari gets surrounded in his hideout


UçK Fighters advance towards Tetovo

so long, i hope to throw out a Gamma playtest till december, man i dont see any ugly smilies around here...

[Arthedain]

Nice screenies! Looking forward to this one

[McMonkey]

That winter terrain looks spot on as do the towns and villages. If the gameplay can match up to the aesthetics your onto a real winner here!

[Hans99]

Need your help guys, i cannot get a particular event to work. Can you check for some errors ? Initflag is set at the beginning, and Debug also showed no problem:

IF
CityTaken
city=Backi Monostor
attacker=Serbs
defender=Croats
@THEN
Continuous
Flag
Who=Croats
State=On
Flag=0
@ENDIF

@IF
CityTaken
city=Sonta
attacker=Serbs
defender=Croats
@THEN
Continuous
Flag
Who=Croats
State=On
Flag=1
@ENDIF

@IF
CityTaken
city=Beli Manastir
attacker=Serbs
defender=Croats
@THEN
Continuous
Flag
Who=Croats
State=On
Flag=2
@ENDIF

@IF
Checkflag
Who=Croats
Mask=0b00000000000000000000000000000111 ; 0x7 also possible
Count=3
State=on
@THEN
JustOnce
text
The whole Baranja ( Sheepplains ) is now under serb control. blablabla
endtext
CREATEUNIT
count=3
unit=Refugees
owner=Croats
veteran=False
homecity=None
randomize
locations
135,47
136,48
endlocations
@ENDIF

[Hans99]

Solved this issue, the checkflag occurs the next turn, so everything is alright, blame me doh...

[Hans99]

Ok, first Beta, events are still unready in variant, as i am still busy playtesting, Sounds and Gifs and all the other stuff is not included in this Beta, as i wanted to keep it small for uploading. You will need civ 2 tot v1.1and civ 2 unlimited and make a hook at 32000 Units max or else it won't work. i include Civ 2 unlimited in the download ( Thanks to Catfish ).

The situation depicts the situation as was in july 1991. the first 4 turns should play very well in a historic flow. As Bosniaks, keep as long peace as possible with the serbs.

Install should be known already, make folder balkan in tot directory and copy
the contents from balkan01.zup and balkan02.zip inside it. Civ2 unlimited can just be copied in your tot folder. then start via civ2unlimited...

So long, my head is killing me. And i wish all of ya a good new year party or in swabian: I wiansch eich elle an guada Rudsch ens nuie Jaohr.

Balkan02.zip
unlimited.zip
Balkan01.zip

Any criticism is welcome, ah and albania and macedonia are not playready yet, and the techtree is off...

[McMonkey]

This looks amazing so far. I love your choice of terrain and cities. Alongside the maps accuracy and the excellent units it looks very slick and authentic for the conflict. I have just begun a game as the Croats. The Serbs are everywhere and the map is so large it is hard to know where to begin. I intend to analyse the situation thoroughly and do some research on the conflict on Wikipedia. I will then formulate an overall strategy and give you a detailed report of my progress (if I make any against all those scary Serbs!). Looking forward to this playtest!

[amaks]

fistly congratulations on the idea of trying to make this very complex conflict into a scenario, it looks like you are doing a great job so far! I have found only one (small) scenario of the war in ex-Yu years ago, but your map is excellent and sufficiently large and detailed to make use of all the locations where the important battles took place

some of the cities have, how should I say, interesting spelling (slovenian are in german) and minor spelling mistakes of some other cities, but I have no problem with that. Also Agrokomerc as a wonder is an interesting one

as for Kosovo I don't know how you plan to make use of the conflict, I see that most cities are under albanian control, it would be more interesting and historically accurate if the cities were under Serbian control with intense albanian insurgency, there were hostilities in the 80s, more serious in the early 90s, the real war broke out in 98

I will playtest when I have more time, keep up the good work

[Hans99]

Thanks for your testing.

@McMonkey
Thanks, but remember it is still very unfinished. it should only be accurate till turn 4-5. And techtree and events are still off. As for that it is very big, yeah, it is really big. And as beginner you get confused by it's size. I am planning to do a map in the readme that explains some of the battle fields to the player. Concerning research, any info is welcome. I already studied many books about this case taken from avaxhome, especially the osprey series. And for scary serbs, the position of Brigades on the croatian border is as it was in reality. I really wondered why they did not make it any further, as the actual battle plan was to reach zagreb.


@Amaks
The small yugoslav scenario you mentioned actually started my interest on this topic. The size is just right. Many thanks go to McMonkey for his work on the raw map.

Concerning the city spelling, yeah, i had some issues. I wanted to bring in some feel of history for the Balkan (e.g. Hungarian spellings for cities in the vojvodina or Kosovo city Neuberg which was founded by saxon settlers around 700, and tody is called novo brdo in serbian).

I think it might be good to insert a explanation about the city names into the readme, as a standard europen cannot make any connections with words as Vakuf or what is a ban or the sandzak. Who would think that Vukovar means wolfsburg or wolfscastle etc... ( No, not wolfenstein...) or Vinkovci ( Vinewood)

Agrokomerc was inserted as a wonder, well because it was the main motor of employment in Kladusa region and Fikret Abdic would not have had as much political influence without it. Many of his followers were employed by agrokomerc and also many of them had to leave after his secession from BiH.

As for spelling mistakes just tell me, and i will see what i can do

As for kosovo cities, i also thought it would be more accurate to make them serb, but i think it might cause difficulties in conquering them in the 98 campaign.
Till now i had serb population units that occupied albanian cities. The kosovo albanians can build no units till 98 but get some via events to cause some havoc.

Hmmm,... but Pristina was heavily defended by serb army, so i think the serb city variant might be better. I will give both variants a try and report or post about it.

So long guys, and wish me luck as i am busy at the moment writing my master thesis.

[Arthedain]

I haven't actually played the scneario yet, but it looks really good. Only thing I noticed at first glance is that the border terrain could stick out more. Great job Hans!

[fairline]

Nice to see a new scenerio released. Well done Hans

[McMonkey]

Up to the second turn (September 1991) as the Croatians and I'm now ready for a little payback!!! Vukovar, Osijek and Mostar all held, though I did lose Gospic. I will give a detailed report once I have finished.

[Hans99]

@McMonkey

I have to exclude mostar from the 1991 war, as it was besieged in march 1992, good you reminded me. And it's a good thing you did hold vukovar, but major assault on the town will start in September.

[McMonkey]

Just found time to play some more of the second turn. The strategic picture is beginning to become a bit clearer (apart from in Bosnia) and I have made some modest headway against the Serbs. I have been keeping notes and will type them up when I have finished my game.

One observation would be that there may be a few too many units. Although this might be realistic I think the gameplay would improve if there were a few less to deal with. This would speed up the turns and make the scenario less daunting for new players. It is very enjoyable so far though!