Jan III Sobieski scenario

[GhostOfDisco]

As I have mentioned in some other threads, I've decided to eventually make a scenario based on the reign of Polish king John III Sobieski. Now, given that my US Civil War 2013 scenario is still not completed, and that scenarios can take a while, it may be some time before this thing is through. This doesn't mean we can't talk about it, though.

So, without further ado, some thing's I've considered:

• When should the scenario begin? Sobieski's reign lasted twenty-two years, which seems a long enough time for a good scenario (especially when dividing the years into months for turns), but Sobieski's military career began a good time before that, including helping kick the Swedes out of Poland and fight the Turks. So I'm not sure exactly when to begin the scenario. Any help?
• I've decided to make the Polish government a Republic. Why?
  

• The Polish government was a quasi-constitutional monarchy at this time (the "nobles' democracy"), including the fact that the Voivods held considerable power for a good amount of time (though it doesn't seem so during this time - or does it?) and Civ 2 decribes its "Republic" government as a collection of autonomous city-states who chose to form a loose alliance or something. So I think it sorta fits.
• The unhappiness factor of the military units (which I might eliminate with Women's Suffrage - any idea of what that wonder could be?) as well as the support factor might illustrate the difficulty in raising an army under the Golden Liberty, which I think would be realistic.
• Likewise, the interference of the Sejm (Senate) in Poland's foreign policy would seem realistic, and realistically limit the King's power.
• Poland called itself a Republic during this time.

[Gagliaudo]

another GREAT IDEA !!!

and I didn't know about Gibson's movie project... let'shope...

[McMonkey]

MAP: If you want to use part of the European map I built for WWII Europa, and cut out the bits you need with Mercators MapEdit, then feel free. I think it is quite accurate and to scale.

FOREIGN UNITS: I remember a scenario called Komenai [sic] by a Polish guy (!) which was about the Byzantines set in about 1071. You could only build garrison units and recruits. The recruits had the 'attack a/c' ability and they had to make their way to training depots (which were aircraft with 0 movement) which they destroyed. An event would then create a Military unit in Constantinople and rebuild the training depot where it was before.
I always thought that was a cool idea. Maybe you could find a use for it!

Great idea for a scenario. I will lend what help I can. Need to start reading up on the era. I have always loved the paintings of the Polish led relief army charging into the Turkish camp overlooking Vienna. I once visited the Arsenal Museum in Vienna where they have some of the actual tents the Turks had abandoned after the battle, they are huge!

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Werd100
I remember a scenario called Komenai [sic] by a Polish guy (!)

Heresson, King of all Frogs under the sky!

He often posts around here, usually to complain there aren't enough scens about Poland!

So he is bound to appear in this thread soon!

[McMonkey]

If Heresson is Maciej Czy then yes! He is indeed a frogging genius! I remember being very inspired by this event/unit creation idea. It means that you can centralize unit production and isolated cities cannot produce formidable units by themselves. The scenario was very tough too. Oh, and the scenario name was: Komnenai!

Here is how it works:

Training depot:
Cavalry camp2,no, 1, 0.,127, 0a,0d, 1h,0f, 11,0, 0, no, 000000000000001

Recruit:
Recruit, Ban, 0, 1.,0, 1a,0d, 1h,2f, 15,0, 0, U2, 001000000010010

Event A:
@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Cavalry camp
attacker=Romans
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
New cavalry regiment trained
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Byz.Cavalry
owner=TRIGGERATTACKER
veteran=no
homecity=Constantinople
locations
115,49
101,31
105,37
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
endlocations
@ENDIF

+

Event B:
@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Cavalry camp
attacker=Romans
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
CREATEUNIT
unit=Cavalry camp
owner=Barbarians
veteran=no
homecity=NONE
locations
98,28
99,29
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,0
endlocations
@ENDIF

Obviously this event works best in pre-Flight eras else I would borrow it for my WWII ToT remake.

[techumseh]

This is a great idea for a scenario. I'm looking forward to it.

[GhostOfDisco]

Yep, I've got Konmenai. I know how the recruitment thing works - which is probably why I could'nt raise any more cavalry when the Turks conquered central Asia Minor.

Though, the concept would be useful when recruiting "local" units (i.e. Tartar "camps" emerge near Polish-held Tartar cities, when destroyed with a "recruit" then creates a Polish Tartar unit, for example.)

As for the foreign infantry, I think the best option for it might be what was done in Exodus II - That guy (forgot the Israeli unit's name) "bought" units by "destroying" purchase units, and when that was done money was dectracted from the Israeli civ and a fighting unit (of the puchase unit's type) was created.

Of course, there is the possibility of abuse - the player could give Poland an inordinate mass of foreign infantry units, but then the abuse could be limited by a number of factors - how many moves the "purchaser unit" has, the quick loss of money (can ToT allow the player to go into debt), etc.

And what should the Sobieski unit look like? What did he wear when going into battle? I've seen some pictures, but sometimes the armor looks more symbolic than actual (one picture has him in psuedo-Roman armor) and, well... I dunno. I do know that he made a point to wear traditional Polish costume, so...

Werd, I think I'll try and use a cropped version of your European map. Would the size of the resulting area be bigger than Red Front's? I don't know. Though I have considered using your map for a hypothetical 1985 Cold War-goes-hot scenario...

[McMonkey]

Not sure how my map stacks up against Red Front scale wise. I do think it is a fairly accurate representation of eastern Europe though and would cover all the areas you are looking at.

Think the pic below is of Sobieski, though I am not sure how historically accurate it is. Look good though!

[Arthedain]

IMHO the red front map is NOT good for this scen. I've seen you mentioned it in another thread a while backand took a look then and though "man, he needs a bigger map". Somehow I nver got around to reply then.

[GhostOfDisco]

Originally posted by Arthedain
IMHO the red front map is NOT good for this scen. I've seen you mentioned it in another thread a while backand took a look then and though "man, he needs a bigger map". Somehow I nver got around to reply then.

Well, right now I'm planning on using Werd's European map (to be more precise, a section thereof), so...

[Arthedain]

..which makes it all good. And IIRC the map will be more detailed if you use it.

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I've been doing city placement, anmd have been using Werd's WWII scenario and this map. I've had some trouble, though - I'm not sure just which cities on the WWII map existed at the time of the scenarios (I know some, like Stalingrad, hadn't been founded yet), and sometimes I'm not sure where the "Jasinski map"'s cities are on the WWII map (or my cropped copy for the scen). Anyone give any help?

I've also done a few unit and improvement graphics, which I'll show here when I have the chance.

Oh, and does anyone know where Czestochowa is?

And some thoughts about Wonders:
The Black Madonna of Czestochowa will take the place of Bach's Cathedral.
The Salt mines of Wieliczka - should it be the Colossus (extra trade) or Crusade (extra shields)?
Should I make Wawel (in Krakow) the Women's Suffrage wonder, or should it be, say, the Royal Castle in Warsaw?

Can you build a Cathedral without a Temple? Because Temples, Cathedrals, and Colosseums (or at least their improvement slots) play an important role in the Catholic-Orthodox-Protestant division in my scenario (at least I hope it does).

[McMonkey]

Post me the cropped map you are using and I will send you back the grid references for the cities of a save game with them places so you can transfer them across. I pretty much know that map inside out and have the original map to help me where my memory fails! I will PM you my e-mail address.

[EZRhino]

Here are a few maps:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...urope_1560.jpg
http://rw46.webpark.pl/poczet/poczet.htm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im...zpospolita.png

Czestochowa is on the Warta rivers, north of Krakow, east of Breslau. Are you going to use German or Pole city names btw?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by GhostOfDisco
Yep, I've got Konmenai. I know how the recruitment thing works - which is probably why I could'nt raise any more cavalry when the Turks conquered central Asia Minor.

Because You had to held on until You discovered Alexios Tech, which would create two new training camps next to Cople... You lose Asia Minor, but You can re-conquer west of if... or all, except for that recently I discovered a bug in this scenario that makes that hard.

Anyway, I'd be delighted to help, with city choice and stuff... But my civ2 doesn't work on my new comp, the old one is broke, so no playtesting, and I am fairly busy, so sorry for any delays.

I may search for Sobieski... There's a baroque statue of him killing a Turk in Lazienki Park But it has no colours. I'm sure it won't be hard to find something.

[GhostOfDisco]

Here's some graphics I made/modified for the scenario...

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, the library I went to doesn't seem to have anything on Sobieski - any online sources that could help? (I've been to the Wikipedia entry on him as well as the Polish Renaissance Warfare site, as well as a few others.)

Just so I can help make everything more historically accurate (or at least plausible :P )

[McMonkey]

Don't know if you have got your virtual PC sorted yet. If you still need help with those city locations you will need to re-send the .sav file as the first one didn't work!

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I was able to get a lot of stuff from my virtual PC disk before reinstalling the whole thing, so I was able to get the map. I'll try and send it to you on Monday.

Also, I did some research on the Battle of Vienna - more specifically, the troop movements and whatnot, and so I've got an event thingy planned. Basically, the Ottomans will declare war when they historically do, and on the date when they fianlly mustered their army, bunch of units will appear in Edirne (sp? - what was once Adrianople), where the Turks historically started their march on Vienna. If you haven't been doing so well against the Turks (they went for Vienna, it seems, because Sobieski was always beating them so badly ) - they won't head for Vienna - they'll head for Poland (I'm thinking of making Krakow their intended target - would that be historically plausible?)!

Some questions on that:

• The MOVEUNIT command. I'm planning to spawn the units in one place (the former Adrianople), and head toward one square (Vienna or Krakow). Would it be best for me to give them starting point, finish point, and let them be on their merry way, or would I need to make them "turn" as it were, in the right direction?
• Movement points and distance. Sobieski's army embarked from Krakow in August 1683, and got to Vienna by September 11-12. So it took only about a month to get there. I wonder how this would translate into movement points for infantry, cavalry and so forth.
• Getting from Poland to Austria. Of course, the Austrians will be allied to the Poles at the time, but we all know that AI allies have a tendency to block their erstwile "friends"' pathways (I know in 2194 Days of War, playing as the US, the Soviets putting T-34s in the way of my European campaign.) I'm thinking of a separate map allowing you to go from Krakow to Vienna unhindered by "allied" units, but how exactly to activate it?
• Just what kind of different types of units did the Turks have? I've got several Ottoman units from fairline's various compilations, but I'm not sure of the differences of each of them.
• The victory of Vienna. For this, I plan to have a good amount of text for the celebration of this momentous event. But how to trigger it? Since the victory was because Vienna was not taken, it seems that the CITYTAKEN trigger would not be the one to use. I'm thinking of a "standard of Mohammed" unit to trigger the victory, but how to ensure that it is generated only when the Turkish army is outside Vienna, and not destroyed by Random Austrian Patrol #5889 which is patrolling outside Vienna and the Turkish army hundreds of miles away?

Just some other things I was thinking about:

• Should I have a separate "pikeman" units? Given that the Polish infantry (at least those raised and/or trained in Poland) had a musket-to-pike ratio of 8:1, it seems their infantry could simply be represent by a musketman. But what of the foreign infantry? It seems that pikes and muskets were side-by-side rather than in exclusive units (musket-only or pike-only), but I'm not sure.
• Should the pancerni be able to be raised from any city, or only Cossack strongholds?
• Any advice on when I should begin the scenario? Should it begin with his election as king, or should I go back to his Hetman (or Grand Hetman) days, or perhaps all the way back when he was a minor Polish commander during the Deluge? I know I've asked this question at least once before...

[fairline]

Pancerni were cossacks in name only; they were the 2nd grade of cavalry after hussars with poorer mounts and equipment. They were not raised from the cossack areas and by the time of your scenario were more numerous than the expensive and aristocratic hussars.

The point about including separate pike and shot units in 17th century scenario is to allow the player to deploy defensive and offensive infantry.

[battosai]

In the late 17th century, I think, pikemen played not much more than an underdog role, if even the polish infantry had a 8:1 ratio. Difficult to establish in the codes of civ is teh role of the pikemen. Defensive against cavalry - of course but also more offense-capable than pre-bayonette musketeers against other infantry. A more flexible pike flag would have solved this issue in a realistic manner. The only gap I see there is to give all cavalry units a fp/hp stat of only 1/1, 2 movement points and the alpine flag... In ToT there could be some terrains made impassable for cavalry (mountains, swamps).

[McMonkey]

Re: Turkish siege/encampment.

If you are trying to represent the siege the easiest method would be to event spawn a large Turkish army outside Wien with a immobile tent unit to represent the Sultan. This unit could be the trigger for the text once destroyed. You could make it strong enough to withstand attacks from the Austrians but vulnerable enough for the stronger Polish units to destroy. You should also include Ottoman infantry and siege guns to threaten the city.

The negative points about this are the fact that the Ottomans just appear. Also if there is an enemy unit in the square the event could be blocked. I suppose if you give a few alternative spawning locations it is unlikely that they will all be blocked but still possible!

I suppose you have got to consider what the player will have be up to prior to this point. Stage managing history can be tricky when you consider the quality of some of the players here. What if the player has ripped through Central Europe by this point. Would it make sense for a large siege train to appear in their rear?

Maybe it would be better to allow the game to flow and not try to dictate too much. If the Ottoman AI gets a load of units through events, say in Belgrade, and it then decides to march on Wien then then you get your siege and relief minus the text. The AI may decide to move on Krakow (for example) instead and the player will have to react to that.

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, here's the map file of the area of the scenario:

[McMonkey]

Is it just me or is the zipped folder empty?

[GhostOfDisco]

Oops. I'll ty to send a good copy of the file when I can.

[McMonkey]

I found a good map of the siege and relief of Vienna. Scanned it but it is too big to post/preview here. Tried to e-mail it to you. Hopefully it is not too big to get through. I though technology was meant to make our lives easier!

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, here's the map on which the scenario is to take place:

[Arthedain]

Great map choice!

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, in the interest of reviving this thread, I’ve decided to share my ideas about the units available to the player (Poland, as this in intended to be a SP scenario):

Hussars: The elite of the Polish army, they are fast, strong and deadly, with a good movement factor, a deadly attack rating, and a decent defense. However, they are expensive (given the 3:1 ratio of hussar regiments mention on the Polish Renaissance Warfare site, I’m thinking about making the Hussars 3x as expensive as the Pancerni, though I don’t want to make the Hussars so expensive that they’re not worth the cost) and they don’t ignore City Walls (which means you’d probably prefer artillery when besieging a city.

Pancerni: Nominally “Cossack” cavalry, these are weaker than the Hussars, but less expensive as well.

Dragoons: Mounted Infantry, of course. Same attack/defense values as the infantry, but with the movement points of the cavalry. Said to be Sobieski’s favorite unit type – wait a minute! I think I know what I want the Sobieski unit to look like! ?

Foreign Infantry:Mercenary armies hired from abroad, though the Polish Renaissance Warfare site indicates that over time they became more “Polish,” first with Polish enlisted and then with officers. Cannot be built, but are purchased via a system not unlike that used in Exodus II. Originally planned on having infantry spawn in key cities, but after a bit of thought decided to have a separate “foreign troops deployment” map, not unlike the TOE map/s of El Aurens. Will resemble Swedish or German infantry in looks, and be inferior to Swedish troops, equal to German troops and superior to Turkish and Muscovite/Russian troops after Sobieski’s reforms, then, they’ll be improved (how exactly I’m not sure), and look Polish. May or may not be divided into “musketeer” and “pikeman” units.

Grenadiers: The PRS says that Sobieski introduced grenadiers sometime in the 1660s, but it didn’t say if these were native Polish-Hungarian grendiers, foreign mercenaries, or mixed foreign-Polish units. Will be a bit more expensive and have a bit more offensive than the regular infantry.

Artillery: Haven’t done that much research on this, but I do know that the Polish considered the cannon essential to both defending forts and taking foritified positions. I also know that the Deluge got rid of a lot of the Polish artillery. Don’t know that much else.

Naval units: Unknown, though I do know that most of Polish warfare at the time was on the ground so…

Sobieski: Your typical “hero” unit. Probably as fast as the cavalry, but if he dies, you lose the scenario. Excellent attack and defense points, but I’ll try to make it so that you can’t conquer all of Central and Eastern Europe with him alone. Might have separate “general” and “King” Sobieski units, with a Leo’s Workshop in, saw, Warsaw to “upgrade” the unit.

Hetman: “General” units: stronger than most units, but not as strong as Sobieski. May split them into Polish and Lithuanian Hetmans, but not Grand and Field Hetmans, as Sobieski was both, and I don’t know how to simulate all that. Hoping to have them generated through events and such (you kill off one Hetman, another one is created, and another one is created when Sobieski becomes king), but if that makes the game too easy, than generate them through events (or maybe not.)

Also, I’ve decided to begin the game in 1665, when Sobieski is promoted to Hetman.

As for the Vienna thing, I’ve come up with a plan:[*]Generate an Imperial “air unit” near Vienna (whether at the beginning of the scenario, I’m not sure)[*]Have a Grand Vizier unit and make him the only one able to attack planes.[*]When the Vizier kills the “air” unit, have a “Standard of Mohammed” unit generated near Vienna.[*]Therefore, when you kill the “standard of Mohammed” unit, you “seize” the Turkish camp and all the wonderful “Vienna victory” events happen.[/list]

Well, that's all for now.

[techumseh]

You might want to try an event that recreates Sobieski just once if he's killed, eg. "Jan Sobieski has been wounded." If he dies a second time, then lose the game.