PROJECT: Playtest (Thread No. 5)

[Martin Gühmann]

Previous Threads:

PROJECT: Playtest
PROJECT: Playtest II
PROJECT: Playtest Thread III
PROJECT: Playtest (the 4th Thread)

Mini-FAQ

General playtest info / questions:

#1 Do I need any additional files to make the playtest work?

IF it is a build created with the .NET compiler. Therefore you need the .NET runtime environment to run the *.exe.
If you dont already have it it is avalaible at windows update or here.
Or at least you need those two dlls if you don't want to install the .NET runtime.

#2 How do I make a mod work with these playtest versions?

Although not all have been tested thoroughly, most mods should work with this playtest version without any changes. If you suffer any difficulties please post about them.

#3 Do I need to install the official Activision patch before this playtest version?

It makes no difference whether you do or not. So it is just a waste of time.

#4 How should I report a bug?

Include as much relevant information as you can. If possible explain how to replicate the problem. If appropriate, attaching a screenshot or a savegame is helpful. If the bug involves a crash to desktop, then it is helpful to include the crash log. You can enable crash logging by editing your userprofile.txt (in [Your CTP2 directory]\ctp2_program\ctp\) to set EnableLogs=Yes. The log can then be found at [Your CTP2 directory]\ctp2_program\ctp\logs\crash.txt.

#5 When will a new playtest verson be released?

When a code monkey feels like it . This will usually be either when some serious bug is fixed, or enough minor fixes have piled up that need to be tested. If you want to test some recent change, you can post here to request a new playtest build and they will try to oblige you.

#6 When will a new playtest thread be posted?

When the old thread is full meaning it has reached or has exceeded the 500 post limit.

#7 How do I refer to a certain version?

You refer to a playtest by posting data or by date of compilation of the executable, you can find the date on the opening screen of the playtest. For instance our first playtest is dated from December the 9th 2003 or in other words it is playtest from 2003-09-12. In the latest playtest readme files we also included the code revision number, so you can also this.

#8 Why did you not use version numbers like Activision did?

We decided that we don't give them a version number until we reimplemented all of the useful features of Activision's v.1.1. Unfortunately there are still a few features missing from the patch. Therefore we haven't yet assigned a version like v.1.2 or v1.3. Well something above 1.2 or 1.3 would be more appropiate since we have been adding much more new features and fixes than the patch added. - Well let's see if this ever happens.

LATEST PLAYTEST: October 20th 2007

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
It is time for a release of a new Apolyton Edition Playtest version. We are now at revision 812. This time we got human to human diplomacy HotSeat support. If everything works well this is also true for PBEM.

All you need is is the following file and follow the instructions in its readme:

Edit: Removed link

By the way E, could you replace the old playtest in the directory with this one so that I can save some space and remove the outdated source code archieve from the directory. It even links to a non-Apolyton space.

Here is the brief changelog since revision 787 from the readme:

2007-10-20 (Revision 812)
Fixed:   The wonder tab of the info window shows again the right construction 
         year of wonders, also the date of messages is shown correctly again.
Fixed:   The diplomacy window cannot be closed by using hotkeys that open other
         screens, so that you cannot close this screen without rejecting or 
         accepting diplomatic proposals.
Fixed:   The scenario editor cannot opened in PBEM mode per hotkey.
Added:   HotSeat (tested) and PBEM (untested) human to human diplomacy support.
Added:   The following civilizations: Han, Yamato, Sumer, Kush, and Macedonia
Fixed:   The map editor generates now the coast line again if needed.
Fixed:   Savegame power graphs

[Tamerlin]

[SIZE=1]
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann[/SIZE=1]

Well it will be part of future versions, even this means I have to find some defects to make it work as supposed. And there will be an option to disable the updater so that my test games aren't interfered by the updater.

-Martin

Thanks Martin, I have not tested the Updater along a full game but I have not seen any problem.

Are there bugs or is there a problem with the game flow ?

Sorry, I saw the note about the 500 posts limit after my last post

About the mods like the SAP2 and so on, is it possible to install them like scenarios ? I suppose that they were meant to be installed this way. And by the way, are the scenario running adequately ?

[Ekmek]

yeah I believe its possible to install them as scenarios except you'll have to get rid of the apol_prefix since the scenario looks for the original file names. thats a project we are looking for volunteers

Everything seems to work find with scenarios loading as mods except the civilizations, it always gives you the default game civs but then in game its messed up. We need to find a way to load the scenario civ names when you play a game.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Thanks Martin, I have not tested the Updater along a full game but I have not seen any problem.

Are there bugs or is there a problem with the game flow ?

The only problem I saw was that the war elephant appeared in the game even if it isn't suposed to appear. And the other problem with my game is that I cannot compare them so easily pre and post updater, since I use the army strength to compare them and with the updater the comparision gets totally messed up, of course.

Originally posted by Tamerlin
About the mods like the SAP2 and so on, is it possible to install them like scenarios ? I suppose that they were meant to be installed this way. And by the way, are the scenario running adequately ?

Why should we do this with the Apolyton Pack, I don't see any benefits from it. The only stuff it contains are additional city styles, we have more and also additional goods. Than the modified civ parchments in order to have leader image there. This issure was fixed long ago. Than we have some text file tweaks, they should be in at least partly. Since we have to decide what is good and what not.

Then the slic maybe there is also something needed, but there is no need for frenzy since that would interfere the AI. Instead of it the AI should select its goals properly and don't go there, just because there is a human player out there. The AI shouldn't be supposed to upset the human player, but it should play its own game in order to win it.

-Martin

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann

Why should we do this with the Apolyton Pack, I don't see any benefits from it.
-Martin

I agree, most of (if not all) the features of the SAP2 are implemented in the AE, it was just a question about the way mods can be installed or not. One of the first things I heard when I registered here was that the CtP2 scenarios were not working.

The question is about making my own mod or testing some other mods (like E's Civ3 mod) without replacing the main files. A scenario folder would be the best way to test changes without replacing the AE files.

Unfortunately, I don't know exactly how to create a scenario nor the way the whole thing is working and interacting with the main files.

[Ekmek]

downloading my civ3mod should show how to make a scenario since thats how I set it.

but basically if you look at a standard ctp2 one you'll see you need to have the scenario/xxxyourscen/xxxyour other folder

so two folders to create then you need the packlist and text and some other stuff. then in the xxyour other folder you need to create a tree with default etc just like the basic game.

what the AE does now once you select a scenario is look in that folder first for a file then loads if it, if the file is missing in your scenario folder it takes it from the default folder.

Mess around a bit, we'll help

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
downloading my civ3mod should show how to make a scenario since thats how I set it.

but basically if you look at a standard ctp2 one you'll see you need to have the scenario/xxxyourscen/xxxyour other folder

so two folders to create then you need the packlist and text and some other stuff. then in the xxyour other folder you need to create a tree with default etc just like the basic game.

what the AE does now once you select a scenario is look in that folder first for a file then loads if it, if the file is missing in your scenario folder it takes it from the default folder.

Mess around a bit, we'll help

Thank you for the answer E, it is still a bit cryptic for the moment but I think I will make it after a few fumbles.

By the way, I think that we should halve (rounding down) the number of turns needed in order to raise the Military Readiness level.

IMHO, the numbers are so high that the player is always at war all the time. If strategy is about choice, there isn't any strategy here. IMHO again, halving the TurnsToNewReadiness makes the choice interesting and it becomes a matter of strategy.

[Ekmek]

i agree they really should only be 2 or 3 turns to be something considered. my calltociv/civ3mod uses the sliders more since impact the gold cost per turn for units so I used it a lot (gold gets eaten a lot more in my mod)

PS my mod needs some updating too but I think its still playable

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
i agree they really should only be 2 or 3 turns to be something considered.

If you think this is a good idea, then you have to make sure that the AI can use it, too.

-Martin

[Ekmek]

Yeah I need to learn a lot about the AI. So far I just got around it by having the AI stay at war and use the gold "cheats"

[Ekmek]

Fixed UnseenCell since a uint16 just contains 16 bits and so you cannot use more. Therefore you have to find another way to store the icons about the religious nonsense on the map

Do i need to even have it in unseen cell? What happens if I make unseen cell a uint64?


SECOND a more important issue. I made a build with 689 and it causes this weird hang at startup, it wont even start up and i have to go to task manager and its not responding. Then i have to go to end process to actually get it to stop. Do you get this too? or should I just do a reinstall?

[Ekmek]

LATEST PLAYTEST: September 9th 2006

Edit: Removed links

LATEST BUILD REV 689: February 6th 2007

Edit: Removed links

For the latest version of the Apolyton edition look here.

@Tamerlin, I added the AE mod in the scenario folder. It should give you a good example of the basics you need to make your own scenario folder

[Protra3211]

This is a good build E. Best start by the AI .Only 95 turns into the game and already Japan(nation next me was the first one I met so far) and has 8 cities 20 units.Well balanced AI as it expands it also builds up military for good defense.Also Japan is building a wonder.
Now for back ground I did not add any cheats what so ever.Just playtest and build.With tiles the game seems picture perfect.
On highest level with map on largest setting with these numbers 7,4,6.7,11,9 which are varibles that build the map.Big factor to help the AI is to have mostly land with some water .
Want to post quick as I feel your on the right track and will stick this out to see how far the AI can keep it up.
Also as a in house rule will not touch military readiness setting as it can give you extra production speed and we all know the AI never uses this setting

[Ekmek]

Awesome. Are you sure your old if DffDB isn't there. If so feel free to add it to AEmod I included this time. And let me know how the AE mod works out if you give it a shot.

Thanks again Protra!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
LATEST PLAYTEST: September 9th 2006

@Tamerlin, I added the AE mod in the scenario folder. It should give you a good example of the basics you need to make your own scenario folder

Thank you E, this is exactly what I needed in order to figure out how all this is working. Thank you again for all the good work.

There seems to be more and more options available in the userprofile.txt file.

Is there a document where all the options are explained along with their effects in the game when they are not obvious (for non-progammers like me)?

If not, I think that we should make such a document.

[Ekmek]

@Tamerlin:
We'd like to do something like that at Apolyton but not surewhen it will happen. In the meantime most stuff is kept at BureauBert's page

But I don't think we've been tracking user profile changes. The other problem is that I think I lost perspective of what people do and dont know since I've been in the middle of the code. So copy, paste or post stuff that you don't understand or have questions about and I (or someone more knowledgeable) will give an answer. Then I'll do my best to make sure atleast Bureauberts database gets updated as well.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by E
@Tamerlin:
We'd like to do something like that at Apolyton but not surewhen it will happen. In the meantime most stuff is kept at BureauBert's page

But I don't think we've been tracking user profile changes. The other problem is that I think I lost perspective of what people do and dont know since I've been in the middle of the code. So copy, paste or post stuff that you don't understand or have questions about and I (or someone more knowledgeable) will give an answer. Then I'll do my best to make sure atleast Bureauberts database gets updated as well.

Thank you E, I think that we should open a thread and compile BureauBert's informations about the various options.

The modders and coders would then only have to add the new option and its explanation to the document.

Unless someone do it before me, I will open a new thread as soon as I can... which means not now.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
SECOND a more important issue. I made a build with 689 and it causes this weird hang at startup, it wont even start up and i have to go to task manager and its not responding. Then i have to go to end process to actually get it to stop. Do you get this too? or should I just do a reinstall?

Obviously you figured out that one. My normal response would be to recompile everything again. Well you could also try to install MS's service pack 6 for MSVC++ 6, for me it seems just a matter of replacing some files and that service pack installer doesn't seem to check where it puts its files.

Originally posted by E
Do i need to even have it in unseen cell? What happens if I make unseen cell a uint64?

No, actually you can't since UnseenCell is a class and not a primitive type like uint16. Well you could do it with m_flag which is the member I was referring to. Actually I kept this a little bit vague so that use TortoiseMerge to check what I changed in UnseenCell.h and UnseenCell.cpp. The only side effect of changing m_flag is that you would destroy savegame compatibility and certainly I would undo the change pretty soon.

So you have to find another way to do what you wanted to do. You can find in that class an example how I hacked into the Serialize method. However I expect for your fix a more general way of doing it. Something that enables you to add more than 5 or 10 or 100 religions.

Originally posted by Tamerlin
There seems to be more and more options available in the userprofile.txt file.

Is there a document where all the options are explained along with their effects in the game when they are not obvious (for non-progammers like me)?

So what is so dificult to understand these option:

str_profile_CloseOnEyepoint                     "Close Message When Clicking Eyeball"
str_profile_ShowExpensive                       "Show Expensive Tile Improvement Effects"
str_profile_ShowOrderUnion                      "Show All Army Orders" 
str_profile_RecentAtTop                         "Put New Messages At Top"
str_profile_CityClick                           "Select City Instead Of Army"
str_profile_DebugSlic                           "Slic Debug Messages"
str_profile_EndTurnWithEmptyBuildQueues         "End turn with empty build queues"
str_profile_RunInBackground                     "Allow end turn in background"
str_profile_Upgrade                             "Unit upgrading"
str_profile_SmoothBorders                       "Smooth empire borders"

Well of course not all of them are actually used or work as they are indended to work. Maybe some of them can be formulated better. But there is not much room to make the descriptions longer. So what are your suggestions for improvement?

-Martin

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann

SECOND a more important issue. I made a build with 689 and it causes this weird hang at startup, it wont even start up and i have to go to task manager and its not responding. Then i have to go to end process to actually get it to stop. Do you get this too? or should I just do a reinstall?

Obviously you figured out that one. My normal response would be to recompile everything again. Well you could also try to install MS's service pack 6 for MSVC++ 6, for me it seems just a matter of replacing some files and that service pack installer doesn't seem to check where it puts its files.

I found that when I had my Civ3mod folder in the Scenario folder I would get this hang. removing my mod got rid of it Which I *think* is related to those old continent asserts we had before with my mo. I'm thinking to redo the const.txt and diffdb.txt because i think thats where they come from.

No, actually you can't since UnseenCell is a class and not a primitive type like uint16. Well you could do it with m_flag which is the member I was referring to. Actually I kept this a little bit vague so that use TortoiseMerge to check what I changed in UnseenCell.h and UnseenCell.cpp. The only side effect of changing m_flag is that you would destroy savegame compatibility and certainly I would undo the change pretty soon.

So you have to find another way to do what you wanted to do. You can find in that class an example how I hacked into the Serialize method. However I expect for your fix a more general way of doing it. Something that enables you to add more than 5 or 10 or 100 religions.

I'll check it out. Not sure how to do something with 100 religions because that involves a lot of numbered MAPICONS.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
I found that when I had my Civ3mod folder in the Scenario folder I would get this hang. removing my mod got rid of it Which I *think* is related to those old continent asserts we had before with my mo. I'm thinking to redo the const.txt and diffdb.txt because i think thats where they come from.

Well now you have two file candidates, so remove one and test whether it is the culprit and then do it with the other, if you don'tknow which database flag causes the problem then we cannot fix the problem.

Originally posted by E
I'll check it out. Not sure how to do something with 100 religions because that involves a lot of numbered MAPICONS.

Therefore we have arrays, so that we don't have to hard encode the stuff and can make it dependent on a database.

Well, still it doesn't keep you from figuring out how to save this piece of information in save games. And obvously you have to figure out how add a ReligionDB.

And by the way, replay the code tag in your post by a quote tag, it mixes up the whole thread.

-Martin

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann

So what is so dificult to understand these option:

str_profile_CloseOnEyepoint                     "Close Message When Clicking Eyeball"
str_profile_ShowExpensive                       "Show Expensive Tile Improvement Effects"
str_profile_ShowOrderUnion                      "Show All Army Orders" 
str_profile_RecentAtTop                         "Put New Messages At Top"
str_profile_CityClick                           "Select City Instead Of Army"
str_profile_DebugSlic                           "Slic Debug Messages"
str_profile_EndTurnWithEmptyBuildQueues         "End turn with empty build queues"
str_profile_RunInBackground                     "Allow end turn in background"
str_profile_Upgrade                             "Unit upgrading"
str_profile_SmoothBorders                       "Smooth empire borders"

I am sorry, perhaps am I dumb, but sentences like "Allow end turn in the background" do not mean anything to me and sentences like "Select city instead of army" or "Show expensive tile improvement effects" are not as explicit as it sounds.

Imagine what a CtP2 newbie would think about these sentences.

Well of course not all of them are actually used or work as they are indended to work. Maybe some of them can be formulated better. But there is not much room to make the descriptions longer. So what are your suggestions for improvement?

-Martin

I think that we should produce a text file (other than the userprofile.txt itself) explaining the effects of the various options (even the simpler ones) along with their impact on the game (if they have one).

[Tamerlin]

I have just installed the new Rev689 and the introductory video is not played adequately anymore, there is sound but no image.

I hope it does not have any effect on the Wonder's videos.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I am sorry, perhaps am I dumb,

Why I am so tempted to agree. Well you shouldn't belittle yourself.

Originally posted by Tamerlin
but sentences like "Allow end turn in the background" do not mean anything to me

So what about: Allow CTP2 to run in background

So is it more clear what it means, now. In fact it is intended for those who want to test the game in a automatized way. Unfortunatly it doesn't work. Well for now I leave it like this, since I want to know whether this is enough for you.

Originally posted by Tamerlin
and sentences like "Select city instead of army" or "Show expensive tile improvement effects" are not as explicit as it sounds.

Well the CityClick option doesn't work as it is supposed to work and therefore I removed it from the advanced options. Obviously it isn't clear, but what could it mean? And how would you rephrase it then. And consider that you have to obey a character limit for describing these options in the advance options window. The limit is like you have in ShowExpensive the description shouldn't be longer, otherwise the texts doesn't stop et the borders of the advance options window.

The ShowExpensive is a little bit unclear to you. So what do you think it means? And how state it clearly in the same amount of letters as it is done?

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Imagine what a CtP2 newbie would think about these sentences.

Probably nothing, but what he thinks about "Slic Debug Messages". Probably nothing, too. Simply, because he has no idea what slic is and maybe he has no idea what debugging is, either. But if he suddenly gets such a message then it maybe clearer.

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I think that we should produce a text file (other than the userprofile.txt itself) explaining the effects of the various options (even the simpler ones) along with their impact on the game (if they have one).

Well this is actually something about creating a manual the only problem is you have to consider is who reads the f*cking manual (RTFM). And by the way who writes such a manual? Therefore those descriptions should be as clear as possible. And that was the direction I aimed for with my question for improvement suggestions.

So what about the other options, for instance what does Upgrade, what does it do if it is enabled, what does it do if it is disabled?

What about the SmoothBorders option, what does it do? Well in that case I think we don't need to make it such explicitly, because you can try what it does. Just enable it and scroll a tick you see the result.

What about CloseOnEyepoint is it clear to you what this means? Actually the German translation I did is more rediculous than this one, but I have no idea I should translate the eyeball button properly.

And what about the rest what do they mean to you? Well you asked for some work, so here it is.

-Martin

[Protra3211]

Still on my first game using your new build E.I did a recheck E and there are none of my files added to the game.So performance is all based on playtest and build alone.
So far after 176 turns the AI is doing great!Using the cheat I looked at some of the AI factions and most were around 15 cities and 70 units.Not bad.Im still keeping a worried eye on Japan as simple map gifts and white peace withdraw treaties are not working.
Even with 100 gold Japan is starting to move in on me.In some cases a early war can catch the AI of guard with no defense.I thought about this but Japan had twice as many units to out last me so I had 50/50 chance of winning one city but also no defense to hold it.Their not at war with anyone yet .It seems im the main event.Only wars here and there between the AI,s.Over all a smarter AI.Will have to see how the AI performs when at war with me.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


Why I am so tempted to agree. Well you shouldn't belittle yourself.

What about CloseOnEyepoint is it clear to you what this means? Actually the German translation I did is more rediculous than this one, but I have no idea I should translate the eyeball button properly.

Not very clear neither, I agree.

And what about the rest what do they mean to you? Well you asked for some work, so here it is.

-Martin

I have never said that I would like to do the work myself, I have just said that we should take care about something that could become a problem.

For the moment, I don't have the time to do it myself. Perhaps will I do it when I have the time... but I really don't know when.

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann

Originally posted by E
I found that when I had my Civ3mod folder in the Scenario folder I would get this hang. removing my mod got rid of it Which I *think* is related to those old continent asserts we had before with my mo. I'm thinking to redo the const.txt and diffdb.txt because i think thats where they come from.

Well now you have two file candidates, so remove one and test whether it is the culprit and then do it with the other, if you don'tknow which database flag causes the problem then we cannot fix the problem.

well its not those two files which I thought since they are affect world shape that they would be the source of the continent error. in debug_ctp.exe I get the continent error (still) and a new aui_blitter eror. One or the other doesn't let the scenario get installed. not sure what the deal is.

[Fromafar]

Originally posted by E
well its not those two files which I thought since they are affect world shape that they would be the source of the continent error. in debug_ctp.exe I get the continent error (still) and a new aui_blitter eror. One or the other doesn't let the scenario get installed. not sure what the deal is.

What continent error are you referring to? Is this the Assert(REPORTED_MAP_CONTINENT_NUMBERING_INCORRECT) from GetContinent? This one is reported when (and only when) you have a predefined scenario savegame.c2g with inconsistent continent numbering, and should not effect game play in any way.

So, you'd better focus on the aui_blitter (which one?) error. Could be another "double surface locking" problem.

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Fromafar

What continent error are you referring to? Is this the Assert(REPORTED_MAP_CONTINENT_NUMBERING_INCORRECT) from GetContinent? This one is reported when (and only when) you have a predefined scenario savegame.c2g with inconsistent continent numbering, and should not effect game play in any way.

Yeah thats the one I'm getting, But its popping up even though my mod does NOT have a savegame.c2g file because its a mod and not a scenario. i think it say line 453 is the error.

So, you'd better focus on the aui_blitter (which one?) error. Could be another "double surface locking" problem.

I have the details on my other computer but I think it said line 253 of aui_blitter.cpp. But I'll post more info when i get a chance.

[Protra3211]

Still on the same game .On the bottom working my way up and the build so far has been without any CTD.
Its been one of those rare games where the AI has made hardly any mistakes.Most are over 20 cities and over hundred units early in the game.But what has been a key element is the diplomatic action.Japan with the fisrt place military has kept many at cold war stance but no declared wars.But I have a dislike us-completely trust us stance,Must be all the bribes and not kicking any of their units off my land.
Met Mesopotamia next and after a map gift they asked for a peace treaty.A good move by them as they are at war with a stronger nation, Bottom line the AI is using caution before declaring war(there has been wars but short lived) and using withdraw treaties with other nations. Well balanced play like this means AI,s will not ware each other down for mop up attacks by the humand player.
Side Note: I checked the AE mod E, it looks intresting.Will give it a try after this game.
I was wondering will the new E Dilomod work in this version of the build?Also did you include the latest tiles with this build?Thanks again.

[Ekmek]

Protra,

The new diplomod should work with this build. Its built for the english language though because I realized I only enlarged that diplomacy screen. I wish I had a chance to test it out but I believe there shouln't be a problem. BUt post if you do and I respond ASAP.

Your game sounds like its going awesome. maybe post some screenies?