Huh? What are you, stupid?Originally posted by Asher
Huh?
NATO is not in Iraq. This thread is about Afghanistan.
Does the United States of America mean anything to you?
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
Yes, but the USA doesn't dictate where NATO goes or who sends what. If it did, NATO would be in Iraq.Originally posted by laurentius
Huh? What are you, stupid?
Does the United States of America mean anything to you?
You don't understand what is going on, do you?
Sadly these are two things people are refusing to discuss in this thread.Originally posted by Asher
NATO is not in Iraq. This thread is about Afghanistan.
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
We're already doing better than the Soviets, if we werent thered be no point to this thread. Note well, there ARE German and French and Spanish troops in Afghanistan. So why are the US and Canada and UK and NL and Denmark so pissed at Germany and France and Spain? Cause those allies are keeping THEIR troops in the north of Afghanistan, the half of the country thats basically safe. When the USSR was there, there WAS no part of the country that was basically safe.Originally posted by germanos
There is a strong link between Afghanistan and Iraq.
And only because George W. has made it so, first by words and then by action.
NATO is doomed in Afghanistan, we're not going to fare better then the Soviets. Whatever credibility we had has been squandered in Iraq.
Now I dont discount the work the Germans et al are doing in places like Mazar e Sharif. While relatively quiet, theres tremendous work that needs to be done in such places to build the economy and civil society, and the Germans, French etc are doing good work to advance that. But it does seem that in a mission that all NATO states agree is a NATO mission, it would be better if the tasks were distributed so that all would take a role in the more violent areas.
This is more an issue for the Canadians, brits, etc I think. The US would be there anyway. We were attacked on 9/11 by AQ, supported by the Taliban, and we are going to continue to fight both AQ and the Taliban and support the Afghan govt. Pretty much everyone HERE agrees on that, including those long opposed to the Iraq war. For those like Canada who went on to aid an ally that was attacked (ie the US) and out of general concern about the AQ threat, they have, I think, legitimate concerns about burden sharing.
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
Originally posted by Asher
Yes, but the USA doesn't dictate where NATO goes or who sends what. If it did, NATO would be in Iraq.
You don't understand what is going on, do you?
I think it does dictate that to a certain degree. The opposition to the Iraq war among the NATO itself was the only thing keeping NATO away from there. It is an unlawful war.
The mission in Afghanistan is much more legal and legitimate. Even we are there. My point once again was that if the US wasent stuck in Iraq its role and commitment in Afghanistan would be more profound.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
Which doesn't matter -- why should they be the only people pulling their weight?Originally posted by laurentius
I think it does dictate that to a certain degree. The opposition to the Iraq war among the NATO itself was the only thing keeping NATO away from there. It is an unlawful war.
The mission in Afghanistan is much more legal and legitimate. Even we are there. My point once again was that if the US wasent stuck in Iraq its role and commitment in Afghanistan would be more profound.
The problem is many European countries are in NATO enjoying the free ride. Why should you gain the protection of the US, Canada, and UK if you refuse to help when it's needed?
Yes yes I realise the NAto invoked article 5 in 2001 but many of these new nano-allies are participating in Iraqi War out of sheer solidarity.
So saying these countries enjoy a free ride in Nato only shows the extent of your own ignorance. These former Warsaw pact members are the most motivated Nato members.
And now Bush demands even more!
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
It is a serious issue in this country.
Our PM cannot support indefinitely a NATO mission that allows other members of the alliance a free pass. His gov't (or the next Liberal one) will have trouble 'selling' it to the public.
Is NATO finished?
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
Wezil: Exactly what are these countries that are supposedly getting a free pass?
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
Do you require a map? We are trying to talk about ****** Afghanistan!Originally posted by laurentius
Yes yes I realise the NAto invoked article 5 in 2001 but many of these new nano-allies are participating in Iraqi War out of sheer solidarity.
So saying these countries enjoy a free ride in Nato only shows the extent of your own ignorance. These former Warsaw pact members are the most motivated Nato members.
And now Bush demands even more!
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
Did you read the posted article?Originally posted by laurentius
Wezil: Exactly what are these countries that are supposedly getting a free pass?
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
Originally posted by Wezil
Do you require a map? We are trying to talk about ****** Afghanistan!
I'm talking with Asher, you are clearly out of range.
You can try to talk about what ever the **** you want.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
Originally posted by Wezil
Did you read the posted article?
Of course.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
I dont think anyones complaining about the eastern europeans (in fact Poland has offered 1000 troops for southern Afghanistan) - its France, Germany, Spain, that are at issue.Originally posted by laurentius
Yes yes I realise the NAto invoked article 5 in 2001 but many of these new nano-allies are participating in Iraqi War out of sheer solidarity.
So saying these countries enjoy a free ride in Nato only shows the extent of your own ignorance. These former Warsaw pact members are the most motivated Nato members.
And now Bush demands even more!
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
He and I both tried (unsuccessfully) to get you to understand Afghanistan IS NOT Iraq. It is a different conversation.Originally posted by laurentius
I'm talking with Asher, you are clearly out of range.
You can try to talk about what ever the **** you want.
I'm glad you read the article. I supposed you have an answer now? Again, it was pointed out earlier (as well as in the article) what countries we were referring to. Thanks for coming out.
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
well said. Why didn't you just say this in the first place?Originally posted by laurentius
I think it does dictate that to a certain degree. The opposition to the Iraq war among the NATO itself was the only thing keeping NATO away from there. It is an unlawful war.
The mission in Afghanistan is much more legal and legitimate. Even we are there. My point once again was that if the US wasent stuck in Iraq its role and commitment in Afghanistan would be more profound.
Originally posted by lord of the mark
I dont think anyones complaining about the eastern europeans (in fact Poland has offered 1000 troops for southern Afghanistan) - its France, Germany, Spain, that are at issue.
Alright. So France, Germany and Spain are restricted in their participation. But there are different levels of participation and has always been. I think their domestic politics make it very difficult for them to take part in some of the more "hot" missions. Germany with its restricted military , France with its general opposition to anything and Spain with its Socialist govt.
It just strikes me as insolent to state something like this when his Iraqi War is the main reason why Afghanistan hasent been properly pacified yet.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
I hear very little news here (NL) about anybody being pissed at Germany, France or others.Originally posted by lord of the mark
So why are the US and Canada and UK and NL and Denmark so pissed at Germany and France and Spain?
There is great concern though about the situation our government has put our troops in: it was supposed to be save there, and we would be building schools and hospitals. But the government has been forced to send in much more combat troops in as previously envisaged, and parliament is not very happy about it.
And while the situation in Afghanistan might now be better then in Soviet times, it's deteriorating fast. Hell, in the last couple of month more 'Taliban' have been killed then there were supposed to excist in total. In Afghanstan things are going down, not up. And it's a fair question whether sending in more troops is going to turn the tide.
"post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
"I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller :b:
I think he's just ignoring the fact noone has even mentioned Eastern Europe in this thread except him. I don't know why he's harping on something no one brought up though.Originally posted by lord of the mark
I dont think anyones complaining about the eastern europeans (in fact Poland has offered 1000 troops for southern Afghanistan) - its France, Germany, Spain, that are at issue.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
That is an incredibly lame argument. These countries simply aren't pulling their weight, period. The US military has put more than their fair share of involvement with NATO missions in the past, these countries we mention are CONSISTENTLY doing jack-****.It just strikes me as insolent to state something like this when his Iraqi War is the main reason why Afghanistan hasent been properly pacified yet.
They have more problems than domestic politics, their problem is their insufferable pussies. They're arrogant and passive. They don't understand history where similar behaviour lead to World War II.
This is our problem. Countries doing nothing should be booted out of NATO, and pronto. If they're not going to pull their weight, they deserve no protection.
Because I thought there was a consensus about this issue and that we didnt need to go through it again.Originally posted by Geronimo
well said. Why didn't you just say this in the first place?
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
*****THE FOLLOWING IS ABOUT NATO IN GENERAL, NOT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN******Originally posted by Asher
That is an incredibly lame argument. These countries simply aren't pulling their weight, period. The US military has put more than their fair share of involvement with NATO missions in the past, these countries we mention are CONSISTENTLY doing jack-****.
They have more problems than domestic politics, their problem is their insufferable pussies. They're arrogant and passive. They don't understand history where similar behaviour lead to World War II.
This is our problem. Countries doing nothing should be booted out of NATO, and pronto. If they're not going to pull their weight, they deserve no protection.
Personally I hope NATO does collapse. Maybe these coutries are much more willing to invest in the future of common EU defense than some Cold War relic.
It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.
Empire America is just pissing too many people off with its foreign policy. Its allies have no say to it but they have to pay the price for it. In EU you get a vote. So maybe, maybe FranGerSpain are slowly fading away from NATO.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
Why did they vote to invoke Article 5 if "FranGerSpain" didn't want to do anything of use in the theater of opperations?
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
They get a vote in NATO too.Originally posted by laurentius
*****THE FOLLOWING IS ABOUT NATO IN GENERAL, NOT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN******
Personally I hope NATO does collapse. Maybe these coutries are much more willing to invest in the future of common EU defense than some Cold War relic.
It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.
Empire America is just pissing too many people off with its foreign policy. Its allies have no say to it but they have to pay the price for it. In EU you get a vote. So maybe, maybe FranGerSpain are slowly fading away from NATO.
Are you sure they are not doing anything of use?
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
Finally. Something to respond to. (Your posts were noted LOtM).
We are.Originally posted by germanos
I hear very little news here (NL) about anybody being pissed at Germany, France or others.
The same concerns are being expressed in this country. 'Rebuilding' became 'warmaking' and many are not happy. The problem is the burden of the 'heavy lifting'. When NATA members send troops on the caveat they not be deployed in the more dangerous south of Afghanistan, Canadians want to know why our troops should be in the south.There is great concern though about the situation our government has put our troops in: it was supposed to be save there, and we would be building schools and hospitals. But the government has been forced to send in much more combat troops in as previously envisaged, and parliament is not very happy about it.
I agree completely. I don't support the mission as I think it is doomed to fail. Have you noticed how we only kill 'Taliban' not 'Afghanis'? Some day we will realize they are one and the same.And while the situation in Afghanistan might now be better then in Soviet times, it's deteriorating fast. Hell, in the last couple of month more 'Taliban' have been killed then there were supposed to excist in total. In Afghanstan things are going down, not up. And it's a fair question whether sending in more troops is going to turn the tide.
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." - Clarence Darrow
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
I don't know why you need to be told this many times. America does not dictate where NATO goes or what it does. Hell, I don't think there's ever been an American head to NATO in its history.Originally posted by laurentius
It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.
Originally posted by Geronimo
They get a vote in NATO too.
The point was that theres no common foreign policy in NATO.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul Valery
good god!Originally posted by laurentius
The point was that theres no common foreign policy in NATO.
There sure *as HELL* is no common foreign policy in the EU! You held up the possibility of an EU based alliance as an alternative to NATO! The EU??
Originally posted by laurentius
Personally I hope NATO does collapse. Maybe these coutries are much more willing to invest in the future of common EU defense than some Cold War relic.
It seems like there is a misunderstanding about the nature of NATO between the Europeans and North Americans. We dont want to be part of a US military reserve. It makes much more sense to actually be part of a real defense alliance.
Empire America is just pissing too many people off with its foreign policy. Its allies have no say to it but they have to pay the price for it. In EU you get a vote. So maybe, maybe FranGerSpain are slowly fading away from NATO.
Quite sure.Originally posted by laurentius
Are you sure they are not doing anything of use?
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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