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Thread: Training Succession Game 201

  1. #181
    wertyu70
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    I played 4 more turns, then I stopped because I need advice...

    810 AD
    Uruk builds university, starts barracks (since we are planning an invasion, we want veteran soldiers)
    Shuruppak builds university, starts barracks.
    New uruk builds warrior, since production is awful I start to build a worker.

    I heard Aztecs are building Copernicus.

    Since I want to research banking as soon as possible
    but we haven't much gold, I sell Wines and Fur to Iroquis. I got 11 gpt + 12 gpt.

    820 AD
    Ellipi builds marketplace, starts barracks.
    New Eridu builds worker, I start harbor.

    830 AD
    Babylon builds our first veteran knight.
    I rearrenge production so that babylon produces 18 shields = 1 knight in 4 turns.
    But since we are near to banking (next turn), I start producing colosseum as prebuild for a bank.
    Larsa builds a temple, starts a courhouse sicne corruption is awful.

    I check the foreign office advisor and all the AIs ignore banking. I hope to sell it to Iroquis and Aztecs for Chemistry and Astronomy

    840 AD
    Banking discovered!
    Niniveh builds knight, start bank
    Babylon production switched to knight.
    Coventry builds temple, start worker.
    New Castle builds temple, start harbor.

    And now the bad news...
    I contact Iroquis to trade banking and I discover that they already know it!!!
    But Aztecs and Zulus don't know it.
    Let's try to get as much as I can.
    Aztecs refuse to trade Astronomy for banking,
    even if I try to add all our gold and gpt.
    The only think I can get is Chemistry, but I need to add 60 gold. I accept the trade, then I sell banking to zulus for 13 gpt and 26 gold. I ignore Monarchy because I think we don't need it.

    After I got Chemistry I discover that Iroquis and Aztecs already have metallurgy...

    So now, what should I do? What Should I research next?

    Iroquis and Aztecs have Astronomy, Metallurgy and Monarchy. Zulus have only Monarchy.
    We can research Democracy or we can try to go toward Adam Smith. Or we can study Astonomy, in the hope to get something from Zulus and trying to get some of the next techs.

    Please need advice...

    And here is the game
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #182
    Modo44
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    I'd go for Economics. You can get it in 7 turns, and you can often beat the AI to it. I think they are researching Democracy at the moment. Use Economics to get luxuries from the Iroquis, along with Astronomy. Hopefully this will allow you to sell all the goodies you have. Get other techs from other civs.

    You could use some more Aqueducts, especially in cities that aren't completely corrupt.
    Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

  3. #183
    punkbass2000
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    Originally posted by dmd175
    Whoa, I must have missed something about scientific method? I never heard anything like this and can't find anything about this in the civilopedia. Are you referring to SM --> TOE --> AE + Elec --> Hoovers?
    Sorry, could have made a quick reply to this sooner. Yes, that is what I mean. The ToE slingshot is usually the game breaker and about the furthest I ever get into a game.

    Originally posted by dmd175
    Because of this tech research treachery by Aztec and Iroquois, we must reevaluate strategy. PP will now only have value to trade to Zulu. We cannot expect it to mean anything to England and Sumer, if they are still around. That means we will get one tech maybe from Zulu. We are not researching Chivalry b/c we can defend for now and will likely have cav by the time any major offensive is underway. Everyone has eng'g and we can get that anytime. I thus propose education for now, possibly MT next if it looks like London can put up JSB. BTW, London has just passed # shields required for HE. With education, I'll try to time prebuilds for Universities in at least Babylon, Nineveh.
    Well, you win some, you lose some I'm surprised to see them get this first, but IIRC there is always a bit of a random factor in AI tech selection. The "value" of the techs is only a modifier, not unlike combat . I would go for Education at this point, yes.

    Originally posted by dmd175
    Education can give us either PP or eng'g from either Aztec or Zulu (Iroquois have education). I think we should skip PP for now, and try to obtain eng'g and maybe invention? I traded to Aztec first for eng'g and 90 gold. Zulu then is "close to deal" for invention trade for education and 115 gold. Maybe I will wait until next turn, even though we can get PP and 3 gold for education right now. I think it is safe to wait because Zulu has nothing to trade Aztec or Iroquois for education (tech, 3 gold, no excess lux or resources). AI is hanging on to monarchy and will not trade it
    Yeah, I would ignore PP for now. We already have all contacts and we're probably not really needing its preqs. Eng'g is far more useful at this point. I would wait for Inv. as well. You probably can get it in two turns at most. Don't worry about Monarchy unlerss you really think we're likely get into wars of epic proportions before we can reach Communism.

    Originally posted by wertyu70
    "Questions:
    Now we have a whole continent for us.
    My standard strategy on lower level is:
    1) switch to "builder mode"
    This is a fairly vague statement. In any case, however, military action will likely lead to quicker and more certain victory. We are doing well enough that an entirely peaceful approach will probably win here, though it's not cemented.

    Originally posted by wertyu702) Wait until we get Cavalry (a lot)
    or Infantry+Artillery
    Depends on the situation, really. If you get to Cavs with enough time to build/upgrade a sufficient fleet as well as build/upgrade enough Cavs before the AI is goin g to have tons riflemen, you can certainly blitz them. If you're going to be facing Riflemen, it may be worthwhile to wait a bit longer and bring some Riflemen of your own as well as plenty of Cannons. If you're going to face Inf wou're probably going to be in need of an exorbitant number of Artillery with maybe 10% Inf of your own and 10% Cavs.

    Originally posted by wertyu703) Start the invasion
    Is this strategy right for this kind of game?
    Or should we try to manage an early attack?
    I fear that attacking zulus as dmd175 suggested is risky,
    because Iroquis are near to them...
    How to continue is, to a degree, largely a matter of style and experience. You have to make calls that may not be easy to determine, like when they're going to get certain techs and when they'll be able to build/upgrade the new units in reasonable quantities, as well as how many nits they're going to have, not to mention your own army. Terrain and landform can also be considerations needing to be taken into account. I wouldn't worry too much about the Iroquois being nearby, you can likely sign them into a MA, giving the Zulus a two front war and almost certain death.

    Originally posted by Dominae
    Given your position, the best way to end the game quickly and "win big" (i.e. get a high score) would have been to beeline directly for Military Tradition once you hit the Medieval era. With most of your cities producing Horsemen in the meanwhile (and one dedicated to Leo's), you would have no problem completely overrunning the rest of the world.

    I know this may sound like a boring strategy ("You mean I just forget all the other Medieval era Wonders!?", "What about Universities"!?"), it is IMO the most sound given what you managed to do with the English so early on.
    This is generally correct. I do think it is boring, however

    Originally posted by wertyu70
    Why our army has only a warrior inside?
    Why don't to fill it with a couple of Medieaval Infantry?
    Sorry, I should have explained this (I forget which things have been tweaked in the AU mod often enough) Because the AI won't use armies in C3C because of the extra movement bug (I an clarify further upon request), armies have been reduced to single units with a 4hp bonus (still bonus sight, movement and blitz, however). Thus the Warrior army is already full and cannot take any more units.

    On the combined arms issue in gnereal, though I think Dominae and vmza are both quiote correct and can easily prove it with dramatic success ratios at higher difficulties, I do think this really requires a very specific plan from the beginning that is fairly uniform. I know I said earlier about wanting optimal strategies vs. fun ones, but I do think their advice limits the game; I may be wrong. I do think that for the fastest wins, you need to dedicate your entire civ to it from the beinning. A couple granaries, few buildings that produce culture and Barracks everywhere. Initial Archer rush to take out nearest opponent for extra REX space. Roll over your continent with Knights whilst beelining towards Cav. Eliminate all competition with Cavs before Replaceable Parts. Sadly, this probably about the only strategy for Sid-level play.
    In more "interesting" games, I find defensive wars with plenty of arty and a few elite fast movers to be very effective strategies. I know I'm builder and often play games with the variant outlined in my AU Peace Deity game, when I do play for a fun game without any real restrictions, I will genrally employ an Archer rush with five cities or less, unless it appears to be wholly impractical. It's simply too good a strategy to pass up, usually. I often find myself dropping games like that after a particularly good Archer rush, as it is usually just too predictable at that point, for me. Otherwise I drop the game after taking my home continent (or the surrounding islands) with KNights/Cavs. In my most challenging games I don't quit until I grab the aforementioned ToE, which always seals a game not played at Sid, I find.

    Originally posted by Modo44
    I'd go for Economics. You can get it in 7 turns, and you can often beat the AI to it. I think they are researching Democracy at the moment. Use Economics to get luxuries from the Iroquis, along with Astronomy. Hopefully this will allow you to sell all the goodies you have. Get other techs from other civs.
    Yes, Economics is another good tech for trade bait.
    "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
    -me, discussing my banking history.

  4. #184
    wertyu70
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    Wink

    After a pause for holidays and work troubles I had to face when back to office, today I will play some more turns.
    Now I have C3C installed on my laptop, so I can play also during lunch time

  5. #185
    punkbass2000
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    Excellent I was hoping this hadn't died; I was even vaguely considering banging 10 turns out myself on the weekend.
    "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
    -me, discussing my banking history.

  6. #186
    wertyu70
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    Just play few turns (uhm, better than nothing).

    840 AD:
    Selected Economics as our next rsearch goal. 7 turns.
    I hope to get it first and trade it for astronomy and metallurgy...

    850 AD:
    Shuruppak builds barracks, starting knight
    Economics in 5 turns.

    860 AD:
    London builds JSB! Marketplace starts.
    Ellipi builds barracks, starts aqueduvt
    Akkad builds library, starts barracks
    Uruk builds barracks, starts knight
    Hindana harbor, starts courthouse.

    I realize we have a lot of size 6 cities without an acqueduct and with a terrible shield production.
    I'm trying to reassign some citizens as specialists,
    to get some more science or gold, instead of getting useless food.

    870 AD:
    Eulbar switched from courthouse to Acqueduct,
    since it has some excess food and the corruption is not so high.
    Tried to get some more specialists.

    I'd like to play some more turns but I couldn't.

    Here is the game.
    I can't play during the weekend and I'd like a veteran to play 10 turns, just to give some corrections where they are needed.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #187
    wertyu70
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    One more questions:
    I understand that the general rule is mining grassland but I realized that in small corrupted cities (and we have lots of them in our continent) the shield is lost due to corruption.
    I'm wondering if it's better to irrigate the grassland around these cities, just to get some extra food to feed some specialists and get some uncorrupted gold or science.

  8. #188
    punkbass2000
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    The rule of 'Mining Grassland' is certainly not a rigid one. For one, it primarily applies to the early game, as Despotism negates the Irrigation bonus of reg (and B) Grassland. Later on, it is a far trickier proposition. It is more dependent upon the city itself. A city with tons of Grassland and little to no 'high-shield-producers', you probably want to Mine. If there are only a few Grassland and much Plains/Hills/Mountains and other 'low-food-producers', you almost certainly want to Irrigate anywhere you can, including grassland. Another issue is your GA; if you haven't had it yet, you may want to Mine Grasslands because they will produce an extra shield with it (eg. it would be better to Mine a reg Grassland and Irrigate a BG, as then you will produce four shields in total between the two tiles during your GA, while if you Mined the BG and Irrigated the reg, you would only produce three.)

    As for your specific query, that depends greatly on more things than I can define. Essentially, it comes down to Corrupt the city is and also the potential Improved Corruption of the city. A city that can never produce more than one shield (without producing more than 19 Waste, at least), will find Mines utterly useless. A city that produces, say 2spt and 10wpt without a Courthouse may be better with Irrigation or Mines or a variety of each, or some of one or the other switched to the the opposite later. AS you can see, even with very vague generalizations, this gets complicated quickly; knowing when/where to draw these lines speaks to core strategy of Civilization to me.
    "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
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  9. #189
    punkbass2000
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    Sorry, not a ton of time, just enough to check through everything "important".

    880AD
    Zariqum is working Hills and unirrigated Plains, bringing growth to a stand still, despite the fact that it only produces 1 spt regardless. Switched to two Irrigated Plains.
    I note that Coventry and Newcastle are still unconnected to the empire. It's far enough out that the corruption penalty probably won't matter, but it's still a good idea to have all your cities connected. An unconnected city can be a prime target. (eg. if a stack landed on the Tobacco SW of Coventry, only nearby two-movers would be able to attack it, as there are no roads by that tile.)
    Drop Sci to 40%, still two turns and makes a dramatic switch from -17gpt to +36, in and of itself.
    There's still lots of cities producing units without Barracks. Further, many of these only produce 1spt. These are not cities that produce units, exept maybe artillery. They're better off with CH's, and the coastal ones need Harbours:
    Warwick to Harbour.
    York to Courthouse.
    Hastings to Courthouse.
    Rush Courthouse in Zariqum for 40g.
    Carchemish definitely does not need Marketplace, it only produces 2gpt anyway, and has no happiness problems. It is still 23 turns from a Marketplace; switched to Aqueduct.
    Oxford to Harbour.
    I note that Eridu is one shield from building a Market; it could have been MM'ed to produce that extra shield last turn, but this is a bit of a nit-pick Anyway, maximized for food, 6fpt this turn.
    New Ellipi to Harbour.
    New Samarra to Courthouse.
    New Ashur to Harbour.
    Khorsabad to Harbour.
    Units moved haphazardly, hope I didn't ruin anything accidentally
    Several Scientists switched to Taxmen, as much as possible while still gaining Economics in two turns.

    Sorry to not really have played, but I don't want to interrupt things
    Attached Files Attached Files
    "I used to be a Scotialist, and spent a brief period as a Royalist, but now I'm PC"
    -me, discussing my banking history.

  10. #190
    wertyu70
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    Just a turn and a half, played during lunchtime

    890 AD:
    Nottingham builds courthouse and starts marketplace
    Eridu builds marketplace, starts barracks
    Zariqum builds courthouse, but corruption is still awful.
    What start next? I choose Acqueduct.
    Izibia builds marketplace and starts library.
    Tell Wilaya builds a worker and start a new one.
    Adab builds worker, since it is on the coast I start a harbor.

    Moved workers to connect unconnected cities and to cut down forest to speed up production in high corrupted cities.

    I checked the foreign advisor and nobody knows economics. We will discover it next turn.
    I tried to lower science rate and convert specialist to scientist, but it was impossible to get Economics in 1 turn.

    900 AD:
    We discover Economics!
    New Niniveh builds harbor, I start a temple to expand borders over sea squares.

    Now it's trade time, but I need to go back to work...
    The next emperor will take care of it. I didn't move any units and we are and the beginning of the turn.

    Besides, I checked the foreign advisor and we are the only civ with economics. In the meantime Aztecs and Iroquis discovered Democracy (Our temporary science goal is Democracy, but it will change after tech trade).
    Attached Files Attached Files

  11. #191
    wertyu70
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    Local Date
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    Today I have no time to play, I just tried t complete the tech trade, unfortunately without luck.
    I tried but there is no way to get Astronomy and Metallurgy for Economics...

    If I give Economics to Iroquis, I can get:
    Silks, Metallurgy, 9gpt and 20g or
    Astronomy, 103 gold, 45 gpt.

    But then Aztecs refuse to trade another tech for Economics.

    What should I do now?

    Besides, checking the foreing advisor, I discover that Iroquis have no horses and Aztecs have no horses and no saltpeter.
    So, even if aztecs have an army larger than zulus,
    zulus have Musketmans while aztecs have only Medieval Infantry and cities defended by pikemens.

    Maybe we can forget astronomy, get Metallurgy, research Military Tradition while building knights,
    then upgrade them to cavalry and use our three ships
    to land them (with some defenders) on Aztecs territory.
    Any suggestions?

  12. #192
    Modo44
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    Originally posted by wertyu70
    If I give Economics to Iroquis, I can get:
    Silks, Metallurgy, 9gpt and 20g or
    Astronomy, 103 gold, 45 gpt.

    But then Aztecs refuse to trade another tech for Economics.

    What should I do now?
    In general, try to get the most expensive tech. If possible, take the one others don't have yet. Also, get mandatory techs first. You can pay a little to the underdogs, if it allows you to buy a tech you need.
    I got:
    • Iroquis: Metallurgy, Silks, 90gp, 5gpt for Economics.
    • Aztecs: Astronomy for Economics, 180gp.

    I'd go on and sell Horses, but I'd also keep the peace. If you plan on getting to war, never sell Horses to the other continent. Apparently you have a monopoly now.

    Originally posted by wertyu70
    Maybe we can forget astronomy, get Metallurgy, research Military Tradition while building knights,
    then upgrade them to cavalry and use our three ships
    to land them (with some defenders) on Aztecs territory.
    Any suggestions?
    It seems doable. But three ships is probably not enough, not on Emperor level. Also, you will need some defenders to grab a foothold on the continent. And, last but not least, you'll have to provide continuous reinforcements, or your invasion will die very quickly. Plan all this, ad you will give them trouble.

    Some notes:
    • In general, cities on flat land (no, or little Hills/Mountains) should have Grassland tiles almost exclusively Mined. It's usually better to boost their growth with a Granary, than with excess Irrigation. Look at Nineveh, Akkad, Sippar as examples. Nineveh is really bad.
    • Some cities aren't building Aqueducts, while sitting at size 6. Remember, the bigger the cities, the bigger the free unit support in Republic. Don't worry about cities growing too fast - it's better to be forced to use specialists, than to be forced to sit on small cities.
    • Lots of unit upgrades to do.
    • You should consider changing the government, to get those corrupt cities out of the hole. If going to war - switch to Communism when you get it. If going for peace - switch to Democracy ASAP.
    • You can, and should, bring Irrigation to the Plains near Newcastle, and Hastings.
    • Consider researching a tech the AI doesn't have yet, if an opportunity arises.
    Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

  13. #193
    wertyu70
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    I played 5 more turns.

    Following Modo44 suggestion,
    I sell Economics to Iroquis for Metallurgy, Silks, 4 gpt and 103 gold, then I got Astronomy from Aztecs for Economis and 178 gold.
    it is the first time I realize the import of cash in trade:
    adding gold allowedme to get the tech,
    while if I added gpt or luxuries the trade were refused.

    After the trade, I realized that Aztecs and Iroquis both have Phisics and Military Tradition but they haven't Navigation, so Idecided to aim for it.
    Now, with Silk, I can lower the luxury slider to 0%
    and I can get Navigation in 5 turn.
    I hope to trade it for Phisics.

    I'm not going to sell horses, I'm planning to attack Aztecs or Zulus and I don't want to face fastmovers.

    I'm not upgrading units for the time being because I want to save gold for tech trade and obtain tech parity.
    I will upgrade my troop before attacking.

    In the meantime I'm sending my workers to change execess irrigations to mines where possible and I switch production of some 6 size cities to Acqueduct.
    In the cities with barracks, I keep building knights.


    Now it is 950 AD, I got Navigation and I trade it to Aztecs (Iroquis refused the trade) for Phisics (I had to had 10 gold) and to Iroquis for gpt, all their gold and World Map.
    No trade with Zulus because they have nothing to offer.
    I also sell some luxuries for gpt and extra cash.

    Now we are near tech parity, Iroquis and Aztecs have Military Tradition and Democracy but they haven't Magnetism and Theory of Gravity and we can get one of them in 5 turns.Which is better?


    Here is the save at the beginning of 950 AD
    (please note that slider and research are not set to the right position, I was doing some "experiments" when I saved the file.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  14. #194
    Modo44
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    Originally posted by wertyu70
    Now we are near tech parity, Iroquis and Aztecs have Military Tradition and Democracy but they haven't Magnetism and Theory of Gravity and we can get one of them in 5 turns.Which is better?
    It's tricky. I can't recall the AI favoring any of those techs. One has a wonder attached, while the other allows many useful ships. But, it seems that no one is building Shakespeare's Theatre. Was any AI building it, before they got Economics (switching to Smith's)? Might be, that the AI is reearching Free Artistry at the moment. In that case, you should get at least one of the mandatory techs before the AI does.

    Notes:
    • If you change some of the Taxmen to Scientists, and move the slider to 80% science, you can have one technology in 4 turns. There's no cash to keep this going, but is worth it, whenever possible.
    • If you don't plan any wonders now, at least build the Heroic Epic before going to war. It will give you more Elites, and hopefull provide some MGLs.
    • If you can, try to drain the AI pockets by selling only technology. Luxuries will help the AI dramatically, by reducing the number of Entertainers they have to use. The AI doesn't move the lux slider.
    • You will gain a free tech upon entering the next era. Each era provides a dramatic increase in tech cost, so whatever you will get for free, you can bleed the AI with it. Consult the F4 screen to see when deals run out, and plan on selling the tech to everyone on the same turn - with maximum profit.
    • Since you are preparing for war, don't bother trading for Democracy or Free Artistry.
    • Since you are in Republic, your units don't do police duty. This means, that you only need units on your borders. If on an island, remember to have coastal cities defended. Put mobile defenders (Knights at the moment) in range of most of those cities, so that you can react in 1 turn, if anyone lands units. You can leave cities inside the continent without defenders, as long as no one can reach them in 1 turn after landing.
    Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

  15. #195
    punkbass2000
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    Sorry I don't have time for more than a nit-pick:

    "If you don't plan any wonders now, at least build the Heroic Epic before going to war. It will give you more Elites, and hopefull provide some MGLs."

    The HE does not give more Elites in anyway; it gives greater chances for MGLs. IT increases the odds of a MGL from an Elite victory from 1/16 to 1/12.
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  16. #196
    wertyu70
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    Local Date
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    Here I am.

    We have just discovered Theory of Gravity (in 4 turns,
    with a lot of micromanagement of specialists)
    and we got a SGL.
    Should I use it immediately for Newton or for Adam Smith? Should I wait for something more useful?
    I'm going to try to trade Theory of Gravity with Democracy and Military Tradition.

    Iroquis started Magellan and we renewed our ROP with them.

    In the meantime, I tried to convert some irrigations to mines (on grasland) and some mines to irrigation (on plains).
    I also moved some military units on undefended coastal cities and started to build Heroic Epic.
    And of course I'm producing military units...

    And where are other emperors?
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  17. #197
    Modo44
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    Smith's you want. Make sure you: rush the wonder on this turn, and sell Theory of Gravity on the next turn. Reasons:
    • Free building upkeep will net you 23gpt right now, with more to follow (Harbors, Markets, Banks are the most important ones).
    • This will probably make Tenochtitlan waste some shields. If you complete Newton's University, no AI would be forced to switch wonder builds. If you'd sell Theory of Gravity first, they'd have something to change to - you don't want that to happen.
    • You can make sure all cheaper wonders are done, so you get an easy shot at Longevity (comes with Sanitation in the AU Mod), with no AI having a prebuild.

    Don't bother buying Democracy - you won't be using it anyway. Instead, get the tech you need (Military Tradition), plus a maximum of luxuries, and cash. This, and Smith's, should pay for the upcoming upgrades easy enough.
    Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

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