Adjusting on the Fly or “How RoN is meant to be played”

[Out4Blood]

This is why I don't like debating with you. You twist words, and backtrack, and clearly do not read other's posts carefully. I'm tired of having to repeat myself in every discussion we have, so this will be the last. Find another thread in which to chase your tail.

Yet another personal negative attack. You can't attack the logic in what I say, so you attack ME. That's fine. Although I think any rational person would be hard pressed to find examples where I Have twisted words or backtracked. You're just angry because I disagree with what you say. You shouldn't get so worked up over discussion posts where you feel the need to lash out at people. It's not healthy.

But allow me to address your concerns. You say, that

[I] clearly do not read other's posts carefully

yet you are "confused" by my statements that "Also, you should note that I've never said either way was "always" better," and "I get MUCH better times for pretty much ANYTHING using an early classical on land."

1. These are not inconsistent. If I had said "I get MUCH better times for EVERYTHING," then you could say I was backtracking, or being inconsistent.

2. #1 was NOT asserting a generality , while #2 was specific to me. I could have said "EVERYONE gets better times..." but I didn't. That would be unprovable. I said *I* get better times. This is a fact. I've tried multiple maps with multiple methods with multiple variables fixed. These games are avaialble for download and viewing. *I* get faster times with that method.

3. There's a difference between our approaches:

Myst - delayed classical is always better - believe me

Apollyon - I've done tons of testing and there is no difference - believe me

You - Apollyon says there's no difference - so there's no difference - believe us

Me - I hear one thing, but I see differences in my personal games, why don't we collectively test this and figure out what's best?


Are you afraid of someone challenging your thinking?

[HalfLotus]

You can't attack the logic in what I say, so you attack ME...You're just angry because I disagree with what you say.

I've written about a dozen paragraphs supporting my view, and two sentences about your apparent lack of comprehension. I consider that to be a pretty good ratio. I admire your curiosity and welcome you to challenge my views, but do it with some competency. I'm going to explain this again.

I said *I* get better times. This is a fact. I've tried multiple maps with multiple methods with multiple variables fixed. These games are avaialble for download and viewing. *I* get faster times with that method.

I do not doubt your times, and that the Challenge Game demonstrates the fastest way to get to Enlightenment Age. I'm saying the challenge game itself not a useful test. It is a pure tech race and is worthless in game terms because it eschews all relevant goals that a player encounters during a game: 1. resources gathered (in all areas), 2. military capability (defensive and offensive), 3. territorial gain, and 4. potential economic strength from that point forward. Your test does not measure any of those. Anyone with some understanding of the game knows that getting to any one age fastest does not put you in the best position to win, neither economically nor militarily. Not even close. Look a few posts up from here and you'll see where I explained this already. Experts (and several non-experts) have said the same things.

Put simply, tech races mean squat in rise of nations, thus your results are not useful. I thought that you agreed with this, because you annouced a Challenge Game 2 and asked about more relevant goals for which to test. I haven't seen any headway on this new challenge, and you're still trumpeting the irrelevant results of Challenge Game one.

Here's how I see our approaches up to this point:

Myst - blah, blah, blah, I love me.

Apollyon - I've done tons of testing, and there are many effective tech orders depending on game circumstances.

Me - Based on my multiplayer experience and Apollyon's testing, there are many effective tech orders depending on game circumstances.

You- My testing shows that early classical is the best way to win a tech race to Enlightenment Age.

Please do start testing relevant goals and share your findings. I will continue to do the same.

[HalfLotus]

Rare Resource Special Bonuses

Rares affect your resource situation in the form of +10 food, timber, etc. Even more important to your strategy is the large bonuses that most rares carry. The library discounts are particularly useful:

Silver: Age advances 15% cheaper
Furs: Military research 25% cheaper
Dye: Civics 25% cheaper
Silk: Commerce 25% cheaper
Papyrus: Science 25% cheaper

If you have access to one or more of these rares, strongly consider adjusting your build to put emphasis on those lines of research. Be aware of how the different lines of research will affect certain strategies.

Use Furs to your advantage particularly when upgrade costs are very steep, such as when upgrading to Arquebusiers or Tanks. For each level of military you have above your current age, all military units AND upgrades are reduced 5%. Furs make this very attractive.

Dye obviously makes border pushing easier, and can make a territory victory much easier. Putting pressure on your opponent is helpful even if you do not win the territory victory outright. When the Timer pops up, he is forced to found new cities or research border pushing technologies right away, and it puts you in control of the game's pace.

It always pays to stay ahead in Commerce and Science, so if have Silk or Papyrus, get to booming.

Silver is an awesome resource. Use it to quickly execute double or triple age jumps. The more ages you research, the stronger your advantage can become. Seek to extend the game into it's later stages when Age upgrades are very expensive.

Having horses or salt will partially dictate your overall army composition, but don't go overboard or ramping costs will negate your cavalry/infantry savings.

If you have Wine, you get unit upgrades 20% cheaper and can often afford to attack your opponent for several consecutive ages. Usually it is wise to launch an attack and then jump at least one age before committing to another large-scale assult and several more unit upgrades. Otherwise your economy will slow and, unless you put a huge dent in your opponent's nation, you will fall behind the first time he executes an age jump. Pressure your opponent with several consecutive ages of contemporary units and force him to research more unit upgrades than he can reasonably afford. Use this for "expensive" upgrades like arquebusiers and tanks for maximum benefit. Look for furs as well!

Adjustments

The way I go about adjusting on the fly is to consider the nations, map, resource distribution (amount of timber/metal available to me), and rare resources. Most nations have strong tendencies, for example, Egpyt is quite good at horse archer raiding. They have a strong food bonus which allows them to research Classical Age and Mil 2 while still at Commerce 1. Their extra wealth makes it easy to afford several horse archers while still creating Universities and Scholars as you enter Classical Age. Nations without wealth bonuses will find it harder to maintain their knowledge gathering while raiding with Horse Archers and/or Heavy Cavalry, the two strongest harrassment units. Another advantage, and the least important imo, is Egypt's unique Horse Archers. Bonus tip: When raiding early, get his caravan(s)!

I've got a basic plan, early raiding (there are many others for Egypt), and I'm ready to adjust it based on map, resources, and rare resources. Two things that will make me reconsider are a timber scarce map (egypt has no direct timber bonuses), and a defensive civ like Maya.

All maps can _usually_ accomodate early raiding except for Great Sahara and Southwest Mesa. If I start with a very small wood camp, and dont see many trees in the immediate area, I will call of the raiding, and switch to a less lumber intensive strategy. Border pushing works wonders on maps with scarce resources. Get the middle forests on Great Sahara.

Maya can stop raiding very easily because of their insane towers/TCs and the crazy lumber bonuses they get. I wouldn't try raiding a mayan opponent of equal skill. China is somewhat strong against raiding because they replace citizens, caravans, and merchants instantly, and because they have all large cities. This alone wouldn't be enough for me to call off the raiding, but if my timber situation was the least bit questionable then I would. Assuming my timber and nation matchup are condusive to raiding, I move on to rare resource considerations.

Horses are an obviously great rare for cavalry raiding. Likewise any rare with a food, timber or wealth bonus will help. Sugar is always nice. Furs would be great because early raiding is generally Sci 1, Civ 1, Comm 1, Mil 1 & Classical (interchangable), then Mil 2. But what if I get Papyrus? or Sugar? In the case of Papyrus I would get Sci 2 after Commerce 1. Papyrus makes it affordable, and the extra science makes other techs cheaper and ruins more beneficial. In the case of Sugar I would make a couple light cavalry for raiding to take advantage of the food cost savings. I am maximizing the benefits of my current circumstances through adaptation.

Note that the strategy you persue in the early game will affect your nation long after you have executed it. With raiding, you will need to grow your timber and wealth gathering with extra efficiency to payoff your earlier expenses. If you don't, come mid-game, you'll have a ton of food and metal, and little or no wealth and timber to balance it with. Strive for economic diversity and stability in your strategies.

This is a basic example in the early game, there are countless other more complex interactions. Water maps present an entirely different resourse situation, and the need to build a navy. Also I didn't get into opponent's tendencies or defense against a possible raid/rush. I factor my opponent's nation and the map (travel time) when considering these tendencies. There are tousands of different circumstances presented from game to game, how you exploit these circumstances can be the difference between winning and losing.

[HalfLotus]

Random gives me French quite alot. They can be good raiders, especially on water maps. Timber bonuses give you lots of flexibility, and is very helpful toward controlling the water. It's too bad that Warring States and Mediterrean aren't in the random land map set in patch 3. They are two of the best for 1v1 play.