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Thoughts on the strategic stagnation

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  • Thoughts on the strategic stagnation

    I posted earlier wondering why we don’t see more prolific strategy posting on this game. On the surface, this game appears to have marvelous depth, with a variety of civilizations, a multitude of ages, numerous technologies, great RPS interplay of units, and many different victory conditions. On the surface.

    But after the playing the game quite a bit, it’s become apparent, to me at least, that much of that depth is superficial. There seems to be pretty much one basic strategy for this game. Economy wins. Three main factors for this are:

    Defense is very strong
    Ages are short
    Armies are always the same

    Early defense is very strong. Attrition makes attacks before the advent of supply carts a risky venture. Once your opponent gets attrition, a failed attack means the loss of your entire army with no gain other than minor economic disruption. So any attack you make must be enough to completely take out a town. But because of attrition garrisoning troops your opponent only needs a handful of defenders to resist pretty much any early attack. Raiding (except for the Mongols) seems a limited option. A wildly successful raid at best kills an equivalent portion of villagers to compensate for the loss of troops. Even after supply carts are available, it is still easier to defend with smaller numbers of troops who attack and draw out the siege defenders and then garrison back to safety when the enemy responds. So making a small early force of defensive units becomes the dominant strategy.

    Ages are short. Because there are so many ages, the time spent in a particular age is usually very short. Players are faced with the choice of upgrading troops NOW for the attack, or to just wait until the next age. At that point, unlike (AOE and AOK) they can upgrade their troops to the new ones without going through all the previous upgrades. Meaning it becomes better to dash through to the ages as efficiently as possible to an age where attacking become more effective. Attacking becomes a lot easier in the gunpowder and industrial ages. So why not wait?

    Armies are always the same. Two factors collide to make army composition relatively mindless. First of all, the cost escalation for each additional unit of the same type encourages players to make armies with lots of different units. Secondly, the overwhelming counter abilities of units against certain other units make having a one- or two-unit army rather stupid. This ensures that the best army is one that contains a smattering of all unit types, which oddly enough looks JUST like the army the OTHER guy has. Who wins, largely depends on army size, which goes back to the best economy. (IMO, having cost escalation is a poor way to encourage army composition. In reality, building additional units should be CHEAPER, not more expensive, as a civilization realizes benefits of scale and learning curve. Then you’d see players forced to make strategic choices, specializing in particular units, and encourage better cooperation in team games.)

    So despite the huge variety and massive scale, the strategic depth seems to be LESS than that of other RTS games, like Kohan, for example, where with only 4 factions, you have completely different army types and philosophies of playstyle. This may be one reason why there is so little being written about strategy. Just not much there to think about, I guess.
    Out4Blood's Rise of Nation Strategy Blog

  • #2
    If ages are short, then you are using too short of tech advancement. I suggest more expensive/slower tech, even for MP games (which I haven't played).
    I presume you also visit RoN Heaven (more RoN activity there).

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Thoughts on the strategic stagnation

      Originally posted by Out4Blood

      Raiding (except for the Mongols) seems a limited option. A wildly successful raid at best kills an equivalent portion of villagers to compensate for the loss of troops. Even after supply carts are available, it is still easier to defend with smaller numbers of troops who attack and draw out the siege defenders and then garrison back to safety when the enemy responds. So making a small early force of defensive units becomes the dominant strategy.
      Hey O4B;

      Another good post. It doesn't get said enough but the work you and all the other pioneers did in the "Beating Toughest" thread helped a lot of us get up to speed. Thanks.

      When you point out that "it is still easier to defend with smaller numbers of troops who attack and draw out the siege defenders and then garrison back to safety when the enemy responds" it makes me think that this post is largely directed towards single player. Do you feel that the remarks you've made hold for multi as well? I have no feel for that since I haven't done any multi at all.

      I think you make some valid points about raiding and early defense/boom for single player toughest but I also wonder if the strategies you outline might not be a consequence of the resource advantages the AI enjoys on Toughest rather than a lack of strategic possibilities. In essence, we counter the AI advantage by building our economies while the AI builds armies it will usually lose on our defenses and this allows us to keep up in tech until it's time to attack. So for me, working on strategy means trying to break out of the mold you described and win earlier.

      The Wonder Crunch strat I described in "The Quick and the Dead" gets me a win at about 26 minutes but that is just a variation of the strategy you described in that it is defensive and boom based. So, I've moved on and have been trying to work on some different ways to successfully attack/win earlier but without success as of yet. A strategy which I intend to try out sometime will be to build a multi component raiding force with stable units, supply wagons, and generals. I hope that forced march and ambush will allow the raiders to attack and retreat with minimal loses. I'm also beginning to think that the Russians might provide a better means to attack earlier. If you build enough spies (that survive because they remain invisible) then it may be possible to take over the AI armies rather than destroy them and then we could use the stolen army to attack without disrupting our boom and getting behind in tech. The spies could be used as an advance line and create flanking or rear forces from enemy armies. Have you tried anything like this?
      The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

      Anatole France

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      • #4
        Well you post can be true if you play with the easiest settings, try hard settings. The lack of strategy you speak of is your lack of attempts it seems to either try to find a way of a new one, or you simple have not try the WHOLE game, that includes all the nations not just two, and hardest settings.

        For one you can attack earlier it is called the Aztecs warriors, they do alot of damage very early in the game, and the Russians have a bonus with calvary of 20% more damage then normal calvary. I have a many times charged way early in the game with calvary, and as soon as I could get Generals, I rushed them over with more cav and with the all ready attacking cav. The attrition you speak of is not that strong for all the nations only russia have a very strong attrition because that is a special qualities it has. I have rush two comps before with all my citizen armed for battle and a massive regular inf army with generals and have won by conquering the comp.

        It seems to me you play as the same nations and try strategies that are against their strengths. If you play as the Germans and rush way you early you can lose because they are good later in the game. The Aztecs if you do not attack early then you lose a big chance to win easy early in the game. I have played as the brits and have just buildt their gunpowered men with archers and have taken down three comps two allied, one that stayed by himself.

        So try to by the whole game, dont back yourself in the corner and play as one nation doing the same thing. I suggest you buy the strategy guide, you might be surprised on how many things you can do.

        IF you realy want to attack early you need to mustar everything you got with some generals, that means citizens changed to battle ready,to all the fast move calvary you can get, and when you can build archers. WIth the generals make them call all the stops like force march, decoy, everything the more the marrier, I have had so many generals early and had decoys called so many times that it made the army look super hugh.

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        • #5
          Wrangler,

          I suspect you have not checked out the "Beating the toughest AI" thread.

          Out4Blood,

          With standard settings I must agree that there is a lack of depth, especially in SP games against the toughest AI. Unit ramping costs are one reason, but I think rapid age advancement is the main cuplrit. The game plays a lot better with the maximum research cost option. There is more time to implement a bigger variety of strategic choices.

          With standard research times, the game suffers from that design decision to make games last only about 1 hour.

          Unlike turn-based predecessors like Civ II, in which new and subtle discoveries are still being made, I'm afraid RoN has just confused depth with variety. Even so, it has held my attention much better than other RTS games I have tried.

          Comment


          • #6
            WRangler Rhymer, I'll second Solo.

            I'm not a good player but even I can see that you really should read the other threads.

            Out4Blood, Grond and many others have posted good discussions.

            Comment


            • #7
              In reality, building additional units should be CHEAPER, not more expensive, as a civilization realizes benefits of scale and learning curve.
              Looks like a good idea. Making combined arms 'effective armies) would then be expensive.
              Clash of Civilization team member
              (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
              web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

              Comment


              • #8
                The Russian horde of spies works very nicely but I haven't gotten in under 28 minutes with it yet. Just can't see no rhyme or reason.
                The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

                Anatole France

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jaybe
                  If ages are short, then you are using too short of tech advancement. I suggest more expensive/slower tech, even for MP games (which I haven't played).
                  I may try the slow and expensive approach on research for SP. However, getting it in in MP is rather difficult. Very few people are willing to play anything other than default settings.
                  I presume you also visit RoN Heaven (more RoN activity there).
                  I've visited there, but didn't see much of interest. Perhaps it's changed; I will revisit.
                  Out4Blood's Rise of Nation Strategy Blog

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Thoughts on the strategic stagnation

                    Originally posted by Drachen
                    It doesn't get said enough but the work you and all the other pioneers did in the "Beating Toughest" thread helped a lot of us get up to speed. Thanks.
                    No problem, I just like to help and to provoke discussion.[QUOTE]...it makes me think that this post is largely directed towards single player. Do you feel that the remarks you've made hold for multi as well?[QUOTE]My remarks were made primarily for 1on1 games, both vs humans and vs. AI. Certain things work against the AI however that do not work vs humans.
                    ...I also wonder if the strategies you outline might not be a consequence of the resource advantages the AI enjoys on Toughest rather than a lack of strategic possibilities.
                    I don't think. This should be immaterial to opponent really. I suppose if your opponent was no good, then a bad strategy might still win, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good strategy. A strategy is "good" if it holds up against "best play" by your opponent. Actual execution (tactics) is a separate issue.
                    The spies could be used as an advance line and create flanking or rear forces from enemy armies. Have you tried anything like this?
                    I don't make much use of spies. I probably should, but I spend more time on the macro aspects rather than the micro. Spies take way too much micro, IMO.
                    Out4Blood's Rise of Nation Strategy Blog

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by WRangler Rhymer
                      Well you post can be true if you play with the easiest settings, try hard settings. The lack of strategy you speak of is your lack of attempts it seems to either try to find a way of a new one, or you simple have not try the WHOLE game, that includes all the nations not just two, and hardest settings.
                      I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you 1) are unfamiliar with my name and/or 2) have not read any of my other posts. First of all, I ONLY play on the TOUGHEST setting. Secondly, I do PLAY the whole game. Unfortunately, the range of settings that most multi-players are willing to play is rather limited.
                      I have rush two comps before with all my citizen armed for battle and a massive regular inf army with generals and have won by conquering the comp.
                      You must be playing FFA and not teams.
                      It seems to me you play as the same nations and try strategies that are against their strengths.
                      Now why would you think that unless you are just trolling for a flamewar?
                      I have played as the brits and have just buildt their gunpowered men with archers and have taken down three comps two allied, one that stayed by himself.
                      Like I said, you'r playing FFA against comps. That's pretty easy.
                      So try to by the whole game, dont back yourself in the corner and play as one nation doing the same thing.
                      Uh, I think you need to read up a bit more.
                      I suggest you buy the strategy guide, you might be surprised on how many things you can do.
                      As an actual strategy guide author, I can honestly say I would never be surprised about anything I read in a book strategy guide - particularly one from microsoft.
                      Out4Blood's Rise of Nation Strategy Blog

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by solo
                        The game plays a lot better with the maximum research cost option. There is more time to implement a bigger variety of strategic choices. With standard research times, the game suffers from that design decision to make games last only about 1 hour.
                        I may try that option.
                        Even so, it has held my attention much better than other RTS games I have tried.
                        You should try Kohan. Many TBS players have come over because of it. It is unlike most other RTS games and is extremely deep. New strategies are still being evolved TWO years later.
                        Out4Blood's Rise of Nation Strategy Blog

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by WRangler Rhymer
                          Well you post can be true if you play with the easiest settings, try hard settings.
                          ROFL. Like you do with MODERATE? You're frickin' hilarious.
                          Out4Blood's Rise of Nation Strategy Blog

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Out4Blood
                            ROFL. Like you do with MODERATE? You're frickin' hilarious.
                            You got problems buddy, but I will ignore all the crap you just said to me. Look this is strategy talk, all I am doing is remarking about the comments you made, they were not said as an insult.

                            By the way I played top settings, not moderate, plus you dont know what your talking about you have never seen me play.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by solo
                              Wrangler,

                              I suspect you have not checked out the "Beating the toughest AI" thread.

                              Out4Blood,

                              With standard settings I must agree that there is a lack of depth, especially in SP games against the toughest AI. Unit ramping costs are one reason, but I think rapid age advancement is the main cuplrit. The game plays a lot better with the maximum research cost option. There is more time to implement a bigger variety of strategic choices.

                              With standard research times, the game suffers from that design decision to make games last only about 1 hour.

                              Unlike turn-based predecessors like Civ II, in which new and subtle discoveries are still being made, I'm afraid RoN has just confused depth with variety. Even so, it has held my attention much better than other RTS games I have tried.
                              I have read "Beating the toughest AI" thread, along with all the others in the Ron strategy forum. I think you have just misunderstood all that I have posted. Look this is the basic idea I wanted to get across is dont focus on building a bunch of cities go for millitary first. Build a couple of cities, put them in high resource areas, max out their potential first, then build military. Build more cities as need later. If you think that I was trying to say that tech does not go fast in the game you are wrong, I agree is does go extremely fast.

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