The Powerful Mongol RUSH---FLUSH all over again?

[liupang]

Yesterday, I was at home thinking about new starts. Then I think about this Mongol start:
1) get science first, then level 1 military.
2) only build enough villagers for 5 farms and enough(<=70)timbers.
3) When food is enough, advance to classical age;
4) get military level 2 once you advance. You should have that 100 food and 100 metal shortly afer you advance to classical.
5) When you are upgrading, build 2 stables.
6) Now you have 6 Mongol Nomads. Advance to enemy terrioty. Hopefully you already find his timber locations and farms. If he has 2 cities, divide your nomads into 2 groups and goto different places.
7) build 2 light cav asap;
8) If you find he has lots archers, get more light cavs. Otherwise research civic and commerce level 1.

The power of this start is you will have 6 Nomads +2 light cav roaming at enemy territory around 4-4:30 mark. usually the other guy doesn't have attrition by that time, and even he do , since Mongol suffer less attritions, you can still harass the hell out of him.

Counter to this start? Well, none that I can think of. Since nomad's only counter is archer/light cav. They won't have much archer because lack of gold early in the game, and you have 2 light cavs that will kill archer easily. And light cavs can only be built in classical; By that time most people won't be able to mass light cavs. 2-3 light cavs doesn't works well against 6 nomads+ 2 light cavs.And boy did nomads kill villagers quick.

And don't tell me about peasants call to arms...because I tested it and they sux...let me tell you that Militia can't counter cav archers because they melee while cav archer shoot while moving. This militia design is, obviously, lacking in design.

Last night I played some 2v2 and 3v3 games. Funny things happened: one guy in enemy camp select Mongol and use the very exact same start as I just described. And since he's a good microer, he totally destroied one of our guys. Obviously, I am not the only guy who thinks up this start.

Can anybody think of a counter to this? And a generic one, not nation-dependent counter? Since this mongol start is very easy to implement and very hard to counter.Yesterday after that game, if enemy has mongol, we will have one guy choose mongols too to balance it. And if this mongol rush can't be effectively countered by other nations, it will be AOK huns flush all over again

Actually I think this mongol thing is bugged. I mean 3 bonus cav archer for only level 2 military and 1 age? That's too cheap isn't it? Aztec get 3 bonus units only in Gunpowder + level 3 military. Romans only get 2 bonus units in Gunpodwer +level 3 military. So how come Mongols can have 3 bonus units for a paltry level2 military + classical?? And that's 3 powerful units(fast and kills quickly and hard to counter) which worth lots of gold ? I think, as for blance the requirement should be changed to Medieval + level 2 military. Although it's still very powerful, at least give counters a time to build light cavs.

Eagerly listen to you guys' opinion. I hope you guys go out try this start for yourself before give out opinions though. Once you tried this, you will know how powerful it is and how easy it is to pull off this start.

AOK flushers will really love it since you don't need any understanding of ecnomics stuff all you need is micro...sigh.

[Inverse Icarus]

you can counter it by having a standing army when they come, as well as attrition and tower defenses. be quick with the ville garrison, and worst case scenario, he slows you down.

the only problem is you have to know it's going to happen.

whenever i see mongol though, i play more aggressively.

[DarthVeda]

I got burned by a mongol player doing the same thing last week...

[liupang]

UBer, I doubt that you ever face a rush like that. I am talking about 6 cav archers +2 light cavs in your city in 4:00 mark. If you are going to have a "standing army" by that time, there is no chance you also advance to Classical and have light cavs around.

And if you don' t have light cavs, all your ancient units (archers, pikes..)will be eaten up by this mongol army. Light cavs kill archers, and cav archers deal with anything else.

And if you do advance to classical early? Well, then you won't have enough units.

The Mongol can't take your city, of course; The problem is you will suffer severe civilian loss and your production will be shut down. The rushing mongols can soon have both military and ecnomical edge

[Buckets]

I think the only way to deal with that is to dance a little. Archers, since they can hit the moving targets, and heavy inf to protect them (maybe only one of each). Then, dance them in and out of garrison. Place your barracks defensively. Just a theory.

[Carch]

Here's my non-civ dependent counters:

* play a no-rush game
* start with a large village
* play on a large map

And then there are the civ-dependent counters (it is, after all, a civ-dependent rush ...)

* Russia
* Maya with a couple tough Mayan self-shooting towers
* Romans

I haven't tried any of this stuff, but yeah, some rushes are hard to fend off.

[Inverse Icarus]

if you wish to discuss the finer points of the mongol rush in the arena, let me know. i'll pick a random race and i'll see if i can stop it while still advancing at an = or greater speed than you (knowing it's comming, of course).

[KenR7A]

wow, I just tried your build order, worked like a charm! teh computer didnt know what hit it

[Bridger]

Mongols only used to get 2 cav archers per stables, i thought this are more balanced. Most of the other civs that get free units only get 2 free units until at least gunpowder. If they simply changed the unit bonus from 3 to 2, this rush would be counterable.

[Palpatine]

Well I always built in my first two citys a tower while i upgrade to the second age... . Never had any difficulties to block a rush.

[liupang]

Ok, after several days of playing now I can fend off the Mongol rushers a little bit better...

You have to have a tower cover your wood-cutters. Preferably that can cover your farms a little bit too.

If you can have full tech researched and 2 cities and advancing to classical at a decent time(under 4:00) , forego the rax and build a stable directly then start pumping light cavs.

If you can't advance that fast, stay in ancient longer. Go for 2 archers + 1 pikes approach.pikes stay in tower /archers stay close to tower/city. When Mongol light cav charges, swap the 2 army( garrison archer and ungarrison pike).

If you go for direct stable, don't use your single light cav charge enemy's 8-strong army. garrison a little bit , and accumulate your light cav forces. Only fight those favroable fights. Enemy's problem is they can't replace their troops fast.

Once you get atrrition and 4+ light cavs, consider this rush stopped.¡¡you will have less than ideal economy, but hopefully still better than the rusher's.


However, I still find myself in trouble if the rusher can micro really well. Still, there is too much similiarity to good old AOK flush. The AOK flush experts back those time will still have no problem ruin your day with this rush.

[Grond]

OK I'm confusd here, I thought it was 1 bonus unit per stable per age, where are you getting 3? I've tried the Mongols a few a times and I feel this is really not the way to play them. Ranged cav requires wood and gold, where are you going to get gold? What are you going to do with all the food and iron? I think a delayed rush supported by a horde of footmen is much more effective. You just can't get enough gold to do any damage early. Build your gold income as fast as possible then kill his military with your horse archers and take his towns with the pikemen. Bring along some civilians to repair and build a castle so you can garrison.

[Brodie]

you get 3 once you research 2nd military upgrade. If you research this upgrade, then build two stables, you get 6 nomads for the wood-only price of two stables.

I've actually done this with 3 stables, 9 nomads.

Problem is, mongols have nothing past this, so build any kind of counter army and the mongol loses, given equal skill.

[Swissy]

Hmm, Mayans+tower=Dead Mongol Horses.

Your out ranged and out shot as they don't need garrisons to shoot. The city covers the farms and the tower the timber. If he rings the bell you have no chance at all. If I see rusher-types in an mp game, I grab the Mayans. Nice Hvy Inf in Mod/Info, so they are fairly good civ for defensive types.

[Grond]

Military 2 requires a lot of metal. The smal town start on slow and expensive doesn't have enough metal to upgrade to military 2 without building a mine and you have to get to classical before you can make the mine. Maybe your talking about regular, the game is much better on slow and expensive in my opinion.